Nick Thompson’s Journey from Reality TV Cast Member to Advocating for Reality TV Reform

[00:00:00] Nick: The whole world is coming at you. No matter how authentic you were, it's just quote out of context can change everything. The environment is very manufactured. Something happened off camera. We worked it out as soon as we were done filming. They wanted to get on camera. My ex, Danielle, and I had to actually act out because they wanted us to work it out on camera. I received 1,000-dollar stipend for each week that I was filming. And when you break that down, you're working 18, 20 hours a day. It's about $7 and 14 cents an hour, which is below minimum wage, and according to California labor law, that was a violation of the law.

[00:00:38] On top of a very public and ugly divorce, I lost my job. I had worked so hard on my career to get where I was. And then I struggled for 10 months to find work, because people just didn't take me seriously anymore.

[00:00:50] Having a relationship that ends is painful for anyone. Doing it when there's a marriage involved is more painful. And then you just have the world commenting on it as well. So it was just like I had hit my absolute worst, and I was just done with it. I'd lost.

[00:01:05] Kate: Hey there. Welcome to another incredible episode of Rawish with Kate Eckman. I'm smiling because, wow, this pre conversation that I've had before I hit record has me just really lit up and excited. And I've got a kindred spirit here with you that I know you're going to love because if you've ever wondered what the true reality is behind one of your favorite reality shows, we're going to get an inside look at that today.

[00:01:28] And it isn't all what it seems. I have someone here who's courageous enough to talk about his experience, actually getting married on a reality show on the Netflix hit show Love is Blind. So without further ado, let's bring in Nick Thompson. Nick, thank you so much for being here.

[00:01:46] Nick: Hi, Kate. Thanks for inviting me on. It's great to be here.

[00:01:49] Kate: Thank you. I loved our conversation before we got rolling because you're just so candid and so raw. And I think there's so many misconceptions about our favorite reality show participants or contestants, and that there's even some must be nice to be them. Or if they complain or have a negative experience, there's that like, well, they know what they signed up for.

[00:02:12] Or they think that you're suddenly rich and famous and you have all these things handed to you. And I don't know why, but a lot of people don't even consider the mental and emotional strain or impact that these shows can have on you because they simply don't see what's happening behind the scenes. So what is it truly like, at least in your experience to be on such a popular reality show?

[00:02:39] Nick: I will say you are spot on about all of that stuff. And I think one of the main things that people should understand or consider is what reality TV did, especially as it's exploded over the last, probably 15, 16 years, and you have show after show, all different types of cooking shows, you have dating shows, you have competition shows, you have all sorts of different themes and ideas around these things.

[00:03:05] But what it's really done is it's taking the person that you look at and see as your neighbor or that person that you work with, and it's democratized celebrity status. And so when I was growing up, I remember looking at celebrities as something that's pretty unattainable.

[00:03:23] It's only for the best of the best or the best actors or performers in the world or the people that were going to get into leadership positions and have this voice of some sort, whether it be a CEO or a politician or something like that, some sort of entertainer. And what it did is it took the ability for people to feel like it's just right there for me.

[00:03:46] And so what I think that's also done in my experience is it's made a little bit of that glamorizing of Hollywood or that glamorizing of being a celebrity, and it's taken it as this pedestal that's now super attainable. And what that did for me in my experience, I didn't have any interest in being a celebrity or having my 15 minutes of fame.

[00:04:09] I've been, since I was young, teetering on it, but for different reasons. And so when I was young, I've said plenty of times before, if you've ever listened, I used to want to be a professional wrestler, and I wanted to be Hulk Hogan or the Macho Man. But even that, to me, that was about being a character and storytelling and all of that stuff.

[00:04:32] And then as I got into my young teens, I wanted to be a be a film maker. I wanted to be a writer and director. And so that again was like storytelling my ideas and the themes and what I wanted to convey through that art. And I ended up in marketing, which is, again, storytelling. So there was that common theme there, and when I was recruited, which I was recruited for Love is Blind, and I had to tell people, most of the time you send an application, you're not going to be on the radar because people are headhunted for different characters and themes that they're trying to do.

[00:05:11] Kate: I think people don't understand that too, because so many people, I don't even think they want to be on a reality show. I think they want to be famous. They don't want to have that typical 9-5, which I get. They just want to be on the show, get the money, get the fame, be so and so from such and such. And you were just minding your own business. You had your VP of marketing job in Chicago, living life. And you were approached on LinkedIn, I believe.

[00:05:34] Nick: That's correct. I was approached on LinkedIn. And I just remember I laughed at first. I had barely heard of the show. I only knew of it because I never really watched reality TV, but I knew of it because everyone was talking about the first season because everyone watched it because it came out right around the time COVID lockdowns happened.

[00:05:50] So went and I sent it to my friends. I was like, this is hilarious. I had had some co-workers several years earlier that wanted me to go on The Bachelor under the idea that I could bring some integrity to the show and all of that, all of those silly things. But I just went through that whole process for about five or six months of casting, and I just kept thinking to myself, I'm like, there's no way that they would want someone like me on there.

[00:06:19] I'm not very dramatic at all. I don't like small talk. I would rather talk about important things going on in the world or how people are experiencing life, things like that, that I think are really important and much more high-quality conversations to have than what I had seen fairly little of, but on reality TV.

[00:06:42] And so I just kept thinking, and I remember even throughout all the interviews and all the conversations with producers and stuff, I felt like I was like trying to talk them out of it, talk them out of continuing me down this path. And then I say jokingly, but for real, I feel like I slept walk all the way into the pods.

[00:07:00] Because it never felt like it was something that was real. And so my other thing with that was I trusted in the process that this was so different, that this was really a psychological experiment about finding love and all of these things. But then when you get there, for me anyway, it was just such a jarring experience.

[00:07:23] And I went in with the idea that if I get married in this crazy experiment, wow, that's awesome. If I go there and go home after the first day because I don't feel like I can connect with anyone, which to me was probably at the time, the more likely scenario, then I go home. And I challenged myself to do something that I wouldn't normally do.

[00:07:41] And so next thing you know, I go through the whole process. It all happens very fast. It feels like a constant pressure cooker environment. And then I ended up getting married out of the show, which when I look back on it sometimes, it's just like, holy cow, that was a lot to happen in such a short amount of time.

[00:08:01] But yeah, it's a very rigorous process. You work a lot of hours. You're being filmed and recorded, especially in this scenario, at the beginning, 18, 20 hours a day. You're constantly mic'd up. You're shuttled around. You don't get to go outside. You have to ask for bathroom breaks. Food and water, in my experience, were scarce. It's a very exhaustive, time-consuming experience to go through something, especially in this type of environment.

[00:08:32] Kate: It sounds like glamorous jail. 20 hours of intense-- you're like, limited food and water. You don't have access to the outside world. Did it?

[00:08:42] Nick: Well, don't they get access in jail outside, at least a couple of hours a day?

[00:08:46] Kate: It's like it was non-glamorous jail. You got to wear better outfits.

[00:08:51] Nick: Yeah, exactly.

[00:08:53] Kate: And make out with some women. Wow. So why do people not understand you think or realize that, I don't want to say this and I'm not trying to come for any reality producers or the executives running them, but maybe I am. It sounds like you're grossly mistreated.

[00:09:11] Nick: So I would say in my experience and the experience that I've heard from others, it's a very churn and burn, type of industry. And what I mean by that is you are brought in and you're really sold how this is going to work and slowly, especially in this case, for the first three weeks, you lose your autonomy.

[00:09:34] You don't even really realize it happening. When you're put in a hotel room and you're not allowed to leave for days. You don't have a key. You don't have a wallet. You don't have a phone. You don't have the internet. All you have is what's going on up here. Then if you brought a book or something, or if you want to watch some standard TV, because that's all that you're able to do in that hotel room-- so it's a very intense environment, but there isn't really a lot of regulation or labor laws because you're considered contractors.

[00:10:04] So there's a lot of common practices that the reality TV production companies don't have to follow because of the way that they classify people, because of the nature of the shows they're producing, because of the contracts that are very one-sided and exploitative.

[00:10:22] And until you go through that experience yourself, you really have absolutely no idea what you're signing up for, which goes to that side of things. And I think a lot of people have an idea that you're just being followed around by cameras and this experiment and that it isn't highly orchestrated, highly psychologically manipulative, or well thought out to the point where you may think, and this is what I thought going into it, there's not going to be a producer that can make me do something or say something that I wouldn't do or say in real life.

[00:10:55] And that was true. And that was true for me; that's not true for everybody. But that entire environment is such a pressure cooker and it's such a intense thing where you're making life altering decisions very regularly in that accelerated pace that you're doing that with little sleep, no sunshine, or very little sunshine, fresh air.

[00:11:21] You're doing it all in this studio at that beginning part at least, and it's very tough to imagine how you would perform as a human being, let alone as someone who's being recorded, where you can be clipped out of place or edited in any way that they see fit to tell a story. And it's a very intense experience that I don't think people can understand how they're going to react in it until they're actually in it.

[00:11:45] Kate: Yeah, it really concerns me because I've watched so many reality shows, and I feel for you all because I can tell you're exhausted. You're constantly on camera, which most people, even media professionals, you put like Lady Gaga on your show and she used to being on camera under huge pressure situations, she's probably going to crack or crumble and would probably be honest about that.

[00:12:06] And then think of the bad decisions we've all made when we're hungry, when we're sleep deprived, when we're not getting proper nutrients, whether it's from the sun or diet or proper exercise. And then we're not even there with our support systems.

[00:12:20] You're in there with all strangers. So it's almost like they break you down into these conditions to make you maybe act out of character. Or maybe not a lot of food or sleep, but lots of alcohol. And so I feel like you all are exploited, that's why I like to talk to some of you on my show, a place where you can just tell the truth and be raw about it and not have to pretend or make life-changing decisions under duress. My heart goes out to you. That has to have an impact on your mental and emotional health, I would imagine.

[00:12:52] Nick: It definitely does. And everything you said there is spot on. So one of the things that was really hard for me growing up was that-- and I didn't know at the time, I was living with depression. And so as I found out, as I got older, what that was, what that meant, how it impacted me and how I could manage it, one of the things that I know I did and you forget that you do this is I put structure in my days.

[00:13:18] So that's like morning walks, and I got a dog to help me make sure that I do that. It's like afternoon. It's a lot of walks. That's my meditation, is going on walks and making sure that I have workout classes or a gym membership or things that I can do to simulate my body, simulate my brain.

[00:13:35] All of those things are taken away. And when I look at it on paper and I'm like, okay, for three weeks, I'm going to go. I'm going to be in a hotel at night, and I'm going to be filming during the day, until you go through that and I realize I'm not getting my walks. I'm not getting my sunshine. I'm definitely not getting food and water at the timeline that I would have it in my regular or the types of food and drinks that you would choose in your regular life.

[00:13:59] And so it is just this massive form of manipulation and exploitation, like you said, where people are just out of their element. And I think as humans, we're so used to structure, even if we don't think of it as structure, that we don't know what it's like when that's ripped away and really given to somebody else to manage.

[00:14:19] Kate: Yeah, I think another thing that upsets me, and I've worked for the billion-dollar corporations as well, and that's why it's been so powerful to create my own programming here. And I know you have your own podcast that I want to talk about later as well. But you don't have to tell me the amount if you're not comfortable, but I something tells me that the amount of money that Netflix makes off of Love is Blind is quite a bit more substantial than what you, one of the stars of the show, got married on the show.

[00:14:46] You were the big star. Even what Nick and Vanessa Lachey are paid as the hosts. And again, we can watch you again and again and again. So whatever you want to share, but I'm curious about your compensation. We know it's not what Netflix is making by any stretch. And then residuals because technically you're an actor, a performer, even though you're real and a reality star, any light you can shed there?

[00:15:11] Nick: Absolutely. So before I get into the pay, which I'm happy to share my pay structure, and I know that they've changed the pay structure, and it's different from show to show, so we'll caveat that. But I want to address the performing thing, because as I casually mentioned, I think that people look at reality TV and they think that you are just going about whatever the structure of the show is, and there's cameras following you.

[00:15:33] That's not the case. That may seem like the case, but you are being put into carefully constructed environments, situations with people that they choose, conversations that they want you to have. And I would say like, it's easy to get wrapped up in giving a performance.

[00:15:53] And I think the more and more you watch some of these shows-- and you can watch it through the lens of like, okay, these people are actually performing, you'll see the performances right in front of you. It becomes very clear. And I actually compare it often to WWE where it's like you've got your Hulk Hogan's, your Macho Man's, and all those guys.

[00:16:13] And they're playing these larger than life characters. But at the core, they're still a little bit of themselves in there, just amped up for the performance. And that's what I think of reality TV. Now, I didn't amp my performance up. If you were to talk to me on the street, or you were to see me in the show, you're going to get the same person.

[00:16:32] That's not the case with everyone, which is fine. But there are performances. There was a scene that my ex, Danielle, and I had to actually act out because something happened off camera that they wanted to get on camera, and then it caused a conflict and then we worked it out as soon as we were done filming, and then they wanted us to work it out on camera.

[00:16:57] So we had to act out a scene. And so this is happening more often than I think people think. The environment is very manufactured. So when you think about that, you think about labor and why I fight and continue to try and change the status to be employees because you are working, and you're working to make this show, and you're working for them to make more seasons of this show.

[00:17:22] And there's two a year now for Love is Blind. And these seasons are all built on the backs of the people that were on the prior season before. Now, I received 1,000-dollar stipend for each week that I was filming. And when you break that down to the--

[00:17:38] Kate: [Inaudible] so angry. I had to take a pause and a deep breath. That makes me so angry. Continue. Oh, man. But thank you for sharing.

[00:17:48] Nick: Yeah. So a $1,000 a week. And when you do the math, especially on the first few weeks when you're working 18, 20 hours a day, it's about $7 and 14 cents an hour, which is below minimum wage. And you've even seen a labor lawsuit in California that settled a few months ago because, according to California labor law, that was a violation of the law, the amount of hours people were working.

[00:18:14] And there's something to be said about taking a stipend or paying people properly for their work. But then when you get into the residuals thing, anyone for all time, eternity can go and watch me on Love is Blind on Netflix, and I have made the money that I'm going to make from that show already.

[00:18:33] And there's going to be season 7, season 8, 9, 10. They're filming these things all across the country. I have talked to people that have been on these seasons, that have been filming the new seasons. They're not slowing down anytime soon, and I think that it would be fair compensation-- separate from what people get paid to initially film, fair compensation to have some residual payment because they're making millions and billions of dollars off of the backs and the labor of the reality cast members of the seasons before, of the shows before.

[00:19:11] And very few people outside of maybe the recurring cast on some shows are being financially compensated in any meaningful way, according to the amount of money that these shows are bringing in from a revenue perspective and a profitability perspective.

[00:19:25] Kate: Yeah. And it's upsetting, and you could say, when we know better, we do better. And you were just minding your own business as a successful VP in the working world and they came for you, and it sounds like you were open to falling in love and getting married on or off camera. But you don't know.

[00:19:45] And something tells me though, if you did reach out to someone or if there was an organization like yours, the UCAN Foundation that I'd love to speak to as well, and thank you for doing that, you all can have almost like a union or stick up for yourselves.

[00:19:58] But then I would imagine that they would say, well, screw him. There's 100 other people out there like Nick Thompson, not that there is, but that they could replace you with Tony off the street in Nebraska, who is just like, oh, I'll do it for free. Or, oh, I don't mind doing it. And so I think even when you see what goes into it and then how your name image likeness is used for-- even now they're protecting amateur college athletes.

[00:20:23] People are now making millions off of their name image, likeness. So that's the thing too. They should know better by now. It's not 10, 20, 30 years ago. It's 2024, and you need to compensate people.

[00:20:36] Nick: I completely agree. I could probably talk for three hours on all of that, but--

[00:20:42] Kate: That's all we're discussing.

[00:20:44] Nick: I think you're absolutely right. And what I think happens in all of business and all of industries is power doesn't concede anything without a fight. And so they'll take this until the absolute last bitter second they can film without any of these changes that me and the people within the organization are working towards, including compensation.

[00:21:10] And I think that they will fight every last second they can against it. However, when it comes to people, and it's like I was saying earlier, the democratizing of celeb status, people see reality TV as just one grab away, one step away. So while there are opportunities, I think, out there now for unionization efforts, and one of the things that I'm working on with the organization and several other people is getting the national labor relations board to classify reality cast members as employees, not contractors, because then we're protected by labor law, and labor law says that you can talk about your working conditions.

[00:21:54] You can form a union, which are all things that are outlined in our contract that we're not allowed to talk about. So me whistleblowing on all of this stuff for the last year and a half is something that I'm actually not allowed to do within my contract. But because I'm taking this fight and I'm taking it through the legal channels of the National Labor Relations Board, I'm protected almost by a whistleblower status.

[00:22:23] And so the challenges that we have there is, if I say I want to be part of union or I want to negotiate pay, to your point, there's hundreds of other people behind that person that will happily take this job and they'll go with them. But what we're going to keep fighting to do is have the classification change and then make sure that some labor laws and regulations are in place for reality TV so that we can start to negotiate collectively, bring people together, and create that space where we can have a collective negotiating power.

[00:22:59] Kate: Yeah. And that's why you created this UCAN Foundation that is Unscripted Cast Advocacy Network. And thank you so much for being a fellow status quo disruptor and whistleblowing and bringing some attention to this, being courageous enough to speak openly about it, despite what it could or even will cost you. I think you're thinking of the what you will gain, not just for yourself, but for humanity and all people involved, not just in this industry, but in all. And we only do that by standing up and speaking up and demanding better.

[00:23:30] Nick: Yeah. And I appreciate you saying that. To get personal for a minute, I went through my divorce very publicly. It was the hardest time of my entire life. For example, my mother finding out from TMZ leaking it and not me, along with several other people, because of how things just played out.

[00:23:52] And so that, having all of the speculation and a lot of negativity about me and my name and my reputation, things that were not true, things that were embellished negatively, things that were sensationalized. People starting rumors on Reddit that would get picked up in the media, because they saw me with a girl somewhere or in a group with a girl somewhere.

[00:24:17] The amount of pain and hurt that I experienced at the end of the year 2022, by seeing-- as someone who stayed authentic and went through this with the best intentions and then on top of a very public and ugly divorce, I lost my job because of it. And I had worked so hard on my career to get where I was in marketing.

[00:24:44] I struggled for 10 months to find work because people just didn't take me seriously anymore. I had all the credentials. I had all the experience. I had the titles. I had all of it. And it would just be a lot of times a conversation where it's like, because I work mostly in smaller companies, we're too small to have a headline come out and associate us with your-- when we Google your name and we see all this stuff, it's like-- every employer is Googling you now.

[00:25:10] So in the course of a few weeks, I had just had the loss of a marriage, which people watch on TV, and they don't take it very seriously, or some people take it too seriously, I would think, but they don't really know that that was real.

[00:25:22] There's real love there. There was a real commitment there. There was a loss. It was a real loss of someone I thought I was going to spend my life with. And on top of that, getting really close with the family and losing, all of that, and then losing my job on top of it. And throughout that whole process, no one said anything. No one from the show was like, are you okay? Is there anything we can do?

[00:25:45] I got a call that said that I wasn't going to get sued for breaching the contract by divorcing before we were legally allowed to, which is a whole other-- we could spend 10 days on the contract. So it was just like I had hit my absolute worst, and I was just done with it.

[00:26:03] I'd lost everything. Because of that, I lost my savings. I lost my 401k because I had to keep paying my mortgage and stuff. So all of these things, and people blow up headlines and say, I blame the show. I don't blame the show specifically, but it's this entire situation that creates this life experience for you that you really have no control over anymore.

[00:26:29] I can control what I can control, but I can't control what other people say. I can't control what the media says. I can't control what potential employers are going to think about me being on a reality show. I went on because I thought maybe I could find love that way.

[00:26:43] As I took a step back during this time, December 22nd was rock bottom, 2022. I remember that day. I remember everything about that day. That was rock bottom. And I said, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm done. I don't want my 15 minutes. Take it back. I don't want to be around anything reality TV.

[00:27:02] I don't want to see my name in the headlines. I don't want to see anyone else's in the headlines. And from the absolute lowest place imaginable, I didn't want to live anymore. I didn't want anything to do with anything anymore. And so I did what I had to do to protect a little bit of peace that I had and rebuild myself up.

[00:27:23] And as I started to really, for the first time, after a year and a half, where I just felt like the world was happening to me, and I didn't have any control over it, I started to kind of reflect on, okay, from the moment I got there and through everything and through the relationship and through the marriage and through the divorce, I just started realizing, now that I'm removed from this and I'm really taking the time, this is fucked up. And pardon my language, but this is really fucked up.

[00:27:49] And I had ignored all media opportunities. They always want to catch up. Are you dating? Who are you dating with? Not dating anyone. My life sucks. I feel like it's ruined and I'm trying to put it back together. No one wants to hear that story. So I didn't do any of it.

[00:28:03] And I was just settling back into my reality before the whole show experience. And that was when I realized I'm the person that doesn't want to lead, but often ends up leading. And so I often led group projects in school because no one else would do it. So I have this urge inside of me that we as individual human beings deserve better.

[00:28:29] And I feel like we deserve to be treated right. And I don't think what happened to me and what I saw my ex-wife go through and experience herself-- it's not my story to tell, but she went through it, and she had a very difficult time, and watching her go through that and experiencing that from my heart of somebody who loved her and somebody who cares for her, it was very difficult.

[00:28:51] And I looked at this and I'm like, well, someone has to say something and do something. I'm not going to be one of those people that just goes on my Instagram and complains because I have a couple hundred thousand followers. And so what am I going to do? And that was when I had started learning a little bit about the potential for the UCAN Foundation.

[00:29:13] And I said, well, if someone else isn't going to say something, I guess it's me again. And I'll stand up and say something. And I'll trailblaze and I'll pave the way so that everybody behind me can talk about their experiences and have the protection to do so, because at this point, this had taken everything from me and I didn't think that it should take everything from anyone else.

[00:29:35] And so that's when I finally had the wherewithal to look back on it, think back about it, grow from it, and find my mission and my purpose for all of this. Because let me tell you, I still struggle sometimes and go like, why did this happen? What am I supposed to get out of this? That was something that I dealt with very hard because I was like, I don't understand what I'm supposed to get out of this.

[00:29:59] And now I think it's that I'm supposed to change this and I'm supposed to help other people change this and bring people together and move this industry into the modern times from a labor perspective, from a compensation perspective, from a advocacy perspective, because I think there's just so many things people don't know and that they assume and that they project.

[00:30:20] And the reality is that each of these reality cast members is just a human being that's doing the best they can with whatever they have and whatever their situation is. We shouldn't be treating people-- it's archaic times and forcing them to have their lives completely disrupted or ruined or their mental health or physical health trashed and destroyed for your entertainment. And that's where I'm at with this, and I don't think we should be doing that. And I'm going to keep doing this and partnering up with all the other people that are also in this fight.

[00:30:58] Kate: Yeah, it sounds like the true love story that you really gained because you lost a lot. And I'm sorry for that. And I feel it in my heart, and it's painful. And so my heart goes out to you and this beautiful love story that you did find with yourself and falling in love with yourself and your own authenticity and your own boundaries that you're able to set with people. And these lower vibrational relationships are no longer working for me, and just clearing everything out to make space for best of the best.

[00:31:27] And I'm so excited to see all the beautiful people that do enter your life or that have entered your life. So maybe that's the lesson here, is sometimes we have to lose it all to really get to know ourselves on a deeper, more meaningful level. And I know that's important to you. I have to--

[00:31:43] Nick: One thing, I just want to thank you. I appreciate you saying that, and yeah, I did lose a lot, and my tagline for myself at the time was I'm on a never-ending quest for rock bottom. But I want to just say like, I'm not a victim. I refuse to ever be a victim. And while I did have those thoughts like, why is this happening to me? What am I supposed to get out of this? I never once allowed myself to be a victim.

[00:32:10] Because I do think that while I was out of control of a lot of the things, I was always in control of how I reacted. And I did stay authentic to myself when every everything was falling apart and everyone was telling me to do things that would be out of character, I'll say. So I appreciate you saying that, but I don't want anyone to think that I'm a victim. I'm not. I'm strong, and I'm resilient, and I am going to continue to do that and continue to grow.

[00:32:38] Kate: I can't speak for other people, but for me, it's the opposite of victim when I hear your story. I think victor because you took some unsettling situations and turn them, really transmuted it into your own gold because this notion of really discovering ourselves and truly learning to love ourselves, perceive flaws and all, that's nothing but a victor story.

[00:33:01] It's not victim at all. And I think just someone who's able to keep showing up and has the courage to speak about it, not in the name of being a victim, but in the name of the strength, to be vulnerable and share what happens so that other people can have some insight, not just into your life, but into their own lives.

[00:33:16] Because maybe Steve or Sally, who's listening right now, haven't been on a reality show, but they've been divorced in a short period of time or at all, or they're relating-- everyone has hit their own version of rock bottom. And so I think just listening to you sharing your version of rock bottom and then your love story with yourself and your next steps is a message of triumph and victory. So I just hope you can embrace that because that's what I'm feeling.

[00:33:46] I'm so curious to know, for me at least, my favorite thing to talk about is love. And I just have to know because I've never been in this situation. I have met someone and fallen in love very quickly, and it has blown up in my face, not on a reality show. But what was it like to meet and fall in love and get married and divorced in such a short period of time on a reality show and so publicly?

[00:34:17] Nick: It's very strange because when I look back on it and I reflect on it, sometimes it's like, how the hell did that happen? But what I can say is, we both-- again, I don't like to speak, but I think I'm comfortable saying this on her behalf. I think we both showed up as ourselves.

[00:34:35] And I think that was the way we were able to connect so quickly. I remember there were 15 men, 15 women. And the first day you do speed dating, basically seven minutes with everyone. And I just remember by the time I got to her, it was like, oh my God, these are not my people. I'm going to be going home. That was my mindset. That was my mindset. And I can talk to anyone, but sometimes you feel a connection and sometimes you don't.

[00:35:04] Kate: You're so funny. I love this. Thank you for your honesty.

[00:35:08] Nick: And I just felt it, felt it in the room. It was a different vibe. It was a different energy. And it even got to the point where as time went on and we narrowed each other down relatively quickly after just a few days, which you're not supposed to do according to the experiment, but we did anyway, while everyone else was scrambling to figure out if they were going to get engaged, if they liked someone, if this and that, all the way up to proposal day, we actually had so much time just getting to know each other.

[00:35:36] And you watch it and you think we talked a couple of minutes a day. And at the end, I think we were probably talking six hours a day total, through different parts of the day. And so when you take away the distractions and you take away work and friends and family and expectations and social expectations and all that stuff, and all we had to do is get to know each other. It's interesting from an experimental perspective, because I do believe that that concept can work. I think there's obviously better ways and more ethical ways to do it, but it is very strange because I've never loved anyone like that in my entire life.

[00:36:15] I've never had so much fun with someone in my entire life. I said this, and I remember this on our wedding day because we weren't sure what we were going to say few days before that. And I just remember saying on my wedding day, I'm like, there's no doubt-- I don't have doubt other than this is crazy. Is this the right thing to do right now?

[00:36:35] So I think the key there was that we were both being authentic and we weren't worried about getting married or getting to the next stage or the fame that would come for 15 minutes afterwards or anything. We were just really focused on getting to know each other. And that in its own leads to an authentic relationship, whether ended up not getting married or not being attracted to each other or whatever that could have gone.

[00:37:07] The authenticity is what builds that human connection right there and being able to be yourself unapologetically. That's what builds genuine connection whether you're in a pod and you don't see the person or you're sitting down talking to him at a dinner table or in a coffee shop.

[00:37:21] Kate: What was that experience then of being in love and having that authentic connection, which is rare? And then, whatever you want to share, don't want to share, I think sometimes people just want to see themselves in somebody else's story, even if it's much different, but it's a similar theme. And gosh, we've all experienced heartbreak. And if you haven't, your time's coming, so get ready.

[00:37:44] Nick: Heartbreak is undefeated in life.

[00:37:49] Kate: What was your, I guess, learning takeaway or experience going from that moment and saying I do and then getting divorced, seemingly short time later, and having to do it so publicly and people not being so kind about it and not even being able to tell your mom before she read about it publicly?

[00:38:07] Nick: I go back to that time and I try not to very often because there's a lot of pain associated with it. There's a lot of-- I don't know if resentment's the right word, because I focus really hard on not having resentment, but there's a lot of pain associated with that time, and frustration. Having a relationship that ends is painful for anyone. Doing it when there's a marriage involved is more painful. Mine was just as real as anyone else's that was there. But it was amplified because I didn't just have people that knew us or knew me commenting on it. A lot of times you get to do those things in the privacy of your own life.

[00:38:51] And mine was influenced by a lot of people that didn't know the relationship, that didn't know the pain that came with that divorce, not just for me, but I'm sure for her too. And then the frustrations of going on social media and seeing articles about it, or the fact that all of your friends and family and the people in your life are like watching it like a hawk, or the fact that they have almost insider knowledge on your life of things that they wouldn't know about before.

[00:39:25] And so it's a very weird scenario to be in, and it was incredibly painful because I was mourning the loss of my marriage, and I was mourning the loss of everything that I had expectation wise for that relationship. I was mourning the loss of having a new family that I talked to, visited with regulary. It was a very real relationship, despite what you may think, having watched an hour or so of it on Netflix and then followed on social media or seen in the occasional article or appearance.

[00:40:01] So to me, it was just this feeling of isolation, but no isolation at all. And it was also the most alone I think I've ever felt in my entire life. Because to a lot of people, it's gossip. To the people who are in my life, I even think my closest friends didn't always understand that it was more than this fairy tale on TV.

[00:40:30] And so I've never felt so alone, ever, going through that. And it's still very isolating. And so many of the people that I talk to through UCAN have experienced similar things where it's just isolating because it's such a unique experience. And so few people in the grand scheme of things have gone through it.

[00:40:48] So if you want to know what it was like or put yourself in my shoes or someone else's shoes, that's going through a public divorce, just think about the pain that you went through in a divorce or in a breakup because it is that, and then you just have the world commenting on it as well.

[00:41:08] Kate: That's so intense. I can't even imagine. I want to get to some things that have really helped you maintain a really good mental health through all of this. That's something we're both very passionate about and advocate for. Are you still friendly with Danielle?

[00:41:23] Nick: Yeah, we talked over a year ago now. It was very difficult, I would say, but we don't talk now, but we're cordial. Here's the other thing that I'm coming to realize that's going to be hard for really the rest of my life. Every six months, a new show comes out, which means every six months there's the articles, the where are they now, the who's still together, who's not, the people going back and rewatching all the shows and starting with the DMs and the comments and scrolling through my Instagram and seeing that.

[00:42:02] And then I think to myself, oh, wow, when I meet someone, that's something they're going to have to learn to deal with too, is like, how are you going to feel every time this comes up or when you go on your people magazine, Instagram or whatever, and it's like, boom, it's there. It's something that you don't really anticipate doing, but she and I are going to be connected for the rest of our lives.

[00:42:28] And again, when you go through a divorce or whatever, you can choose, do you want to be friends? Do you want to see him again? Or do you want to block them, never see him or talk to him again? You don't get the luxury of doing that in this situation. And so there's a a lot of stuff there that I think is going to keep us connected, whether we talk or we don't talk.

[00:42:50] Kate: It's like Love is Blind and Netflix are your love child. And it's like you don't have to fight over custody, but it's like, man, we're bonded by this child. That's a big popular child. So I feel for you, my friend. What did you learn from this wild ride that was your Love is Blind experience?

[00:43:12] Nick: Good question. So I'm learning, I'm still learning the stuff I'm learning right now that I just said about how do I manage every six months having all of this thrown in my face again. But I think the biggest learnings that I have is there is nothing and there is no one out there that you should ever let change who you are.

[00:43:37] I think that if you are being your authentic self, if you are surrounding yourself with the people that fill you up and complete you and stimulate you, and you're presented with an opportunity for fame or money or whatever, you should really run it through the filter of your value system. And so I remember I was very confident in myself and my ability and my ethos of do the right thing and act with integrity.

[00:44:10] Those are the things that I try to do all the time, and I was not concerned about what people thought of me coming out of the show. I know who I am and I know I do the best that I can and I try to do the right thing. But what I really learned is that when the whole world is coming at you and you learn that you could very easily be misrepresented, and no matter how authentic you were, it's just one quote out of context can change everything.

[00:44:40] And I learned that I'm actually resilient. I'm so much more resilient than I ever thought I was. And I thought I was pretty resilient, but getting through some of the most dark days of my entire life, getting through literally the worst week of my entire life, coming out in the other side, and trying to change something, I've said this before, but no one really gets rich or famous or anything for starting a nonprofit.

[00:45:09] And to me, in the face of all of the opportunities presented to me to change, to make more money, maybe to do more shows, maybe to expand my following and position myself as a brand instead of a human being, when all of those things presented themselves, I ran that through my value system and didn't make anything or make any decisions outside of my value system.

[00:45:37] And I can tell you that that is the most peaceful feeling in the world. Because there were plenty of opportunities to make a lot of money, to change and lose track of who I am. And so I would encourage people to do that because that's a learning that you can apply in your everyday life, and you will find yourself in a much more peaceful place.

[00:45:58] Kate: I honor you. I don't have children of my own, so I feel like adults. I have adult children like yourself.

[00:46:05] Nick: I got that too.

[00:46:05] Kate: I'm very proud of you, honey. So right now I'm like, I'm so proud of you, honey, because truly, you're not just paying lip service to it. We've spoken before the show, and I can feel it in your energy. You have truly taken a stressful, painful, devastating death and rebirth experience and have transmuted that pain into growth, into wisdom, to not only help yourself, but to help so many others through this foundation, help all of us by sharing your story so authentically. Thank you.

[00:46:35] And I'll say it for you, and then I'd love for you to comment on it. I think you're truly better now in relationships and in your love life. I don't know what you want to share about where you are currently, but you're an even better partner now for having gone through this. How do you feel about that statement?

[00:46:54] I'd love to test that out on someone if anyone's out there. My lips and your lips to God's ears. Okay. So you're currently single for now, but you're open to dating, but with the right partner, not just dating to date.

[00:47:09] Nick: Yeah. I've been saying lately, I'm thinking about dating again. It's been a wild ride. It's been a wild, last year plus. There's been so many different transitions that I've gone through from finally finding a new job and getting settled in my career and the foundation, and all of these things, my podcast, and really focusing on that. All of these things have been the forefront for me. And I thought my story-- this will be maybe a little throwback. If any of my fellow WWE fans are here, they'll pick on this.

[00:47:46] Kate: I'm just thinking Jake the Snake.

[00:47:47] Nick: Oh my gosh. Want to know something? He followed me on Instagram and I was like, oh my gosh. Isn't that weird?

[00:47:58] Kate: That's amazing. He's a legend. That's cool. That's cool.

[00:48:03] Nick: Oh God. Me too. That was so cool. I'm too nervous to ask him on my podcast, but I feel like he would have--

[00:48:09] Kate: Oh, this is your sign. Oh, this is your sign--

[00:48:12] Nick: Maybe it is.

[00:48:13] Kate: Let's do this. When we hang up, when you're in this moment, you're in the flow, that I was just on a podcast talking about-- Kate was interviewing me and talking about her love of Jake the Snake. And then, yeah. Oh, great. I'm excited for you to this.

[00:48:30] Nick: I would love to do that. I'm going to do that. That's great. That's a good takeaway. But what I kept thinking about my story and when you're not in charge of your story, which is what reality TV does to you-- it gives your story and your life experience, it gives it to somebody else. It puts it in the hands of someone else.

[00:48:50] And I felt like I had lost control of my story. When I really thought and reflected on this, this was actually just a few months ago, and I'm like, what am I doing? I'm tired. I'm stuck talking about this stuff all the time. It keeps me in a tough place, and it's painful, and it's a reminder, and it's all of those things that I said earlier.

[00:49:11] And stupidly enough, I saw this reel on Instagram, and it was about finishing your story. And it clicked to me and it was this person-- I don't even remember what movie it's from. I have no idea. But it was like, finish your story. When everyone's counting you out, when it doesn't feel like you can go anymore, finish it.

[00:49:29] And that was when I realized, oh, my story didn't end with my divorce. That was chapter 1, chapter 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 still need to be written. And one of those things is with UCAN. And one of those things is trailblazing the way so that this stuff doesn't need me to talk about it anymore so that other people can talk about it.

[00:49:52] And other people can come together and share their stories. And we're already starting to see this more and more. There's several lawsuits against mistreatment in the reality TV sphere now, all of that stuff. And so I realized, okay, I have to finish my story. And finishing my story isn't getting over the trauma and the loss of my divorce.

[00:50:14] And that's a huge part of it. And that's something that I still deal with every single day, but it is actually like, I have to help people and people have to help me change this industry for the better. And that's the story. And that's the mission I'm on now.

[00:50:29] Kate: Oh, I love that. It's such a beautiful mission, and I would love to have you back and talk about relationships. We were really riffing on conversation and having meaningful connections before we hit record today. And we dove into so much during this episode, so I'd love to have you back. So I want to talk to you about this.

[00:50:46] And I think a lot of people are craving deeper, more meaningful connections in a world of swiping left and swiping right and people not knowing themselves, people not doing the work, people going through things that you and I have personally gone through and throwing in the towel and becoming resentful and bitter and closing off, where for us, we've used it as a catalyst to really open up and truly get to know and love ourselves so that we're able to really have the capacity for an incredible, meaningful relationship. So I would love to dive into that. Before I let you go though, I would love for you to tell us a little bit about your podcast and where people can tune in and what they can expect to get out of it.

[00:51:24] Nick: Absolutely. And I would love to talk about that. I think right now with connections with people, people are struggling. I've done a little bit of coaching actually around how to build strong connections. Because it is possible, and I hope that people recognize that and just do a little bit of work on that. But we'll save that for another conversation.

[00:51:43] My podcast is Eyes Wide Open with Nick Thompson. The purpose of the podcast was to open up conversations with individuals who have great stories, doing good work, or have a controversial opinion, because I think we all need to talk to each other and stop being so divided.

[00:52:02] And so we focus on cultural issues such as mental health, holistic wellness, reality TV, other things going on in the world so that we can all have a meaningful conversation and go through life with our eyes wide open. Because I think a lot of us go through blind, and that doesn't always work out so well.

[00:52:21] So it's really to have meaningful conversations and have people share their experience so that we can build human connection and see the world through different people's point of views.

[00:52:30] Kate: Ah, thank you so much. You've gone from Love is Blind to Eyes Wide Open and really being such a teacher for this through lived experience. So thank you so much for being here. I got so much out of our conversation. I'm sure everybody else did too. I'm excited to have you back. Everybody, please tune into Eyes Wide Open with Nick Thompson.

[00:52:48] This is just the beginning for you, my friend. I'm thrilled to see where you go and what you do and just the catalyst of transformation that you're going to do in the world because you've been willing to do it on yourself first. So thank you so much. I appreciate you. And I appreciate you for being here. You'll have to come back when we have Nick back again. But for now, this is Rawish with Kate Eckman. We'll see you next time. Have a great day. Bye-bye.

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