Sobriety, Self-Love & Starting Over: Hilary Phelps on Finding Fulfillment

[00:00:00] Hilary: If I'm giving the power to that person to give me an apology to make me feel better, then I am the victim. Then I stay stuck in that place versus me taking my power back. When I take care of myself, when I show up and do the things I need to do, when I have these really beautiful conversations with authentic people that fill up my cup, when I get up in the morning and just go for a walk outside in nature, whatever that is, I start to feel better. When I start to feel better, like you're saying, you start to attract those things. I heard someone say it once, like, "Happiness is for a three-year-old." I'm like, I'm so sorry. That sounds like a horrible way to live.

[00:00:32] I've known what it feels like to struggle with addiction. I know what it feels like to navigate a challenging divorce. And I know how lonely, afraid, scared, and worthless I felt during all of that. I owe it to myself to truly find happiness and joy in every day. And not every day is happy and not every day is perfect. I'm not saying that. But I owe that to me as a woman because this is my life, and I get to choose how it looks.

 [00:00:46] Kate: Welcome to another incredible episode of Rawish. I am a swimmer. My guest today is a swimmer. I guess we're former swimmers. Let's just hit record. Let's just jump right in. So it really is take your mark, go, and you got to be prepared because you can't say to the starter, like, "Oh, wait a second," or, "I need to adjust my goggles," or, "Do I look cute enough in this swimsuit?" or, "Am I fit enough?" Or, "Am I good enough to compete next to this guy in lane five?"

[00:01:11] We're not doing any of that. So we're just, ready, go. We've got so much goodness to get to. And what I love so much about this show and the people that I invite onto the show is that it's real. It's raw. Word is really getting into it. And it's really redefining success and everything that's coming up and this notion of being productive, being good enough, being worthy, all of these concepts.

[00:01:35] And I was just saying to her before we hit pause, sometimes there's that notion of, why are we even doing this? Because it's the same 10 people on the same 10 platforms or podcasts talking about the same 10 things. What about the rest of us and how we measure the impact and value that we're adding to the world?

[00:01:51] So I know all of us at some point or another are experiencing overwhelm, exhaustion. We're questioning, why am I even doing this? What's the point? And you're doing this because you feel called to do it. The point is, even if one person's life is changed by something that you're willing to share, or a vulnerability that you're willing to acknowledge, then it's worth it.

[00:02:18] So without further ado, let's get into it. My special guest today is Hilary Phelps, and she has done so much to inspire me. And the main thing that you've done to inspire me is your willingness to just be real. Every conversation we've had, we've just connected without even trying. And we both have just gone there.

[00:02:41] And for those of you who don't know your brother, Michael Phelps, the greatest Olympian of all time, and I can't even imagine what it would be like to be the sibling of someone who has achieved that and then what it means for you, what it doesn't mean for you, what it's been like to be in that family and as a swimmer yourself, and then your sobriety journey.

[00:03:02] And we talked before I hit record about anything you put before your sobriety, you will lose. And that's a journey I'm on right now with my health and wellbeing. Nothing to do with alcohol, but first of all, brava for your sobriety. How did you even know that it was time to go on this sober journey path?

[00:03:26] Hilary: Yeah, so it's twofold. So on June 8th, I celebrated 17 years of sobriety, which is hard for me to believe because when I thought of maybe getting sober, I couldn't imagine going a weekend. And to go back to what you were saying too, there's so many people out there sharing their message, sharing inspiration, and sharing their tips and all of these things, but I think different messengers, even if you say it in the same way, different people resonate.

[00:03:53] And so I think whether it's wellness or addiction, female empowerment, workouts, spirituality, or whatever, we all need these voices in here because everybody's going to hear something different in each person. So I love that you're doing this because your message, your voice, and your authenticity really radiates.

[00:04:11] And so I'm honored to be here with you today, and I'm really grateful that you're lending your voice into the space of helping other people. But when I got sober, I was a blackout drinker, which meant every time I drank, I would blackout and I'd not remember what happened the night before.

[00:04:27] And so in college, it was funny. I thought it was funny, and it was cute. And then after college, I said, "I just drank wine." And so I didn't have a problem because I drank at a really nice bar in Washington, D.C. And I would drink martinis because they looked fancy, and I wasn't drinking out of brown paper bags.

[00:04:45] Sure, I snuck drinks on the way to the bathroom, I might take a shot when people aren't looking, but it was all elevated. And so all of the stories at that time in 2005, when I started to think maybe I drank more than other people, nobody was talking about addiction, especially women in recovery.

[00:05:04] It was Carrie Fisher and Carolyn Knapp who wrote this incredible memoir called Drinking a Love Story. Other than that, I didn't know anybody that went to treatment. And so having these people, having the voice and having people talk about it is really helpful now.

[00:05:20] There's so many people in the space talking about it, but then there weren't, and so there was a lot of shame around that. I'm like, "I don't want to let anybody know, and I don't even know where to go." And so someone came to me at one point, and they said, and this is the really abbreviated version after I'd had a lot of falls and bruising, and I fell down an escalator one night in a blackout. It was really sad, and I felt really lonely, and I felt really disconnected from everyone, especially myself.

[00:05:45] But this person came and said, "If you don't get help for this, I'm going to tell your family how bad it was." And that felt really shameful because I still wanted to hide my drinking and protect it, and I didn't want anybody to know. So while the consequences of my drinking were not as bad as some of the other stories that you hear, I didn't wreck a car.

[00:06:04] I wasn't arrested. I wasn't forced into treatment by the government or by the state. It was bad enough for me, that shame, that loneliness, and sadness. I could walk into a room of people and feel alone. And so at that point I looked into treatment, and I went to an outpatient treatment center in Washington DC in 2007.

[00:06:26] And it was where I first started to learn that I was different, I guess, in that some people could have one glass of wine and put it down and some people could not drink for an entire week. And it was a mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual craving for me to have alcohol. It was something that I could not do on my own. And so I was so grateful for treatment and for 12 steps-- were a huge part as well. And I was grateful for both of those for giving me tools to replace that addictive behavior.

[00:06:54] Kate: What was the pain that you were trying to drink away?

[00:07:01] Hilary: That is a great question. I think when I started drinking when I was 14, I had a little bit of depression. I was the fastest over in the country and a straight A student at 11 and 12. And National Age Group Records, I was on there, National Age Group Records relay teams, and I just never felt good enough.

[00:07:17] There was something inside of me that still told me it didn't matter what room I walked into, that I wasn't funny enough, pretty enough, smart enough, good enough, any of those things, even though I had straight A's and I was the fastest. So I had these external things that were telling me otherwise. I just felt not good enough, which now that I work, with other women, that's a theme that a lot of us deal with, is just not feeling good enough, whether it's a good enough parent, partner, or friend.

[00:07:43] So I think I had a little bit of depression, and then I had that sense of just not being good enough. And at that time my parents went through a divorce when I was 15, and so I was introduced to alcohol at 14, and I started to experiment with alcohol a little bit more because I just had the time. They were living in separate houses, and I think it's a disease too, the disease of addiction.

[00:08:06] It's a brain disease. It starts to damage, to get really technical, the prefrontal cortex that inhibits you from making good choices. And so it does damage that part of the brain. And being so young, I made bad choices for a long time. And then looking back too, I've worked through this with a therapist recently. I think I've done a lot of trauma work, and trauma is trauma, and I didn't have big trauma in my life. but there were other things that felt traumatic to me that I carried, and without being able to name those and name my feelings.

[00:08:37] And as an athlete and as a swimmer, as a performer, you just show up, you dissociate, you push those things down, and you perform. And so also I was taught that from an early age. As long as you're performing, then whatever's happening on the inside doesn't matter. And so that's how I operated till I got sober at 29.

[00:08:58] Kate: Wow, thank you for sharing all these, first of all, so much. I have so many questions. One thing that's coming up right now is we're all familiar with body dysmorphia, for instance. There's people who are 90 pounds and anorexic and still look in the mirror and think that they're fat. It's a disconnect. And when I think of us, two high achievers who've done so much athletically, academically, in life, and we've looked good while doing it, if I do say so myself, because that was the expectation.

[00:09:23] As a woman, you better look good while you're doing all the things. It's so wild. And even as a mother. I always say to my mom friends, I meet them for dinner and they have a one-year-old, I'm like, how did you have time to brush your hair or put makeup on? You look better than me, and I have no kids. So I bow down to all of you mothers. You are superheroes, truly.

[00:09:42] But when you have done some work in therapy, because I've done so much too, where it's this, why-- and join the club in terms of not feeling good enough. But when you try to make meaning or make sense out of, I was all the things, literally, and I still didn't feel good enough, what answer do you come up with in terms of why you had lower self-worth than you should have, especially considering all that you were achieving?

[00:10:07] Hilary: I think some of it was-- and I love my parents. They are the best. My dad passed in 2022, and it was one of the toughest days of my life. My mom's a teacher. My dad was a police officer. And my dad lost his dad at eight. My mom lost her dad at 21.

[00:10:27] And I truly believe parents do the best they can with what they have, but they had three children, and I felt not enough for one parent, and I felt like I was too much for another parent because I was eclectic, and I was unique. And I'm only just discovering this now at my age, and that it's not a slight on them by any means. It's how I felt.

[00:10:46] And so for me, I think feeling that way felt like I had to fit into a box based on who somebody wanted me to be. And I learned from an early age, if I could please you, whether it's a teacher, a coach, a parent, and a friend, then you would like me. And so all I ever wanted was to be liked and feel that connection.

[00:11:03] And so I learned that chameleon, which worked really well in addiction, because as an addict, you navigate what it is. And you show up how you want a person-- how I did anyway. That people pleasing started coming in really early.

[00:11:20] And so learning those people pleasing behaviors, I abandoned myself from a really early age. And so some of the work I'm doing now, we talked a little bit about this, is coming back to myself, my needs, my nervous system, that inner child. What do I need on any given day? And that's the most important thing.

[00:11:39] Like you said, whatever we put before my recovery, whatever you put before your wellness will get taken away. And so for me, I don't think this is selfish, but we've also been told if you put yourself first, it is selfish, especially as a woman, especially as a mother, especially as a partner, especially in business.

[00:11:55] If you want to get ahead, you've got to do whatever it takes to please. And it's like I stopped subscribing to that mentality and said, "What is it that I need?" And I shared with you, I took a nap earlier today because I was like, this is just what I really need right now. And I could listen to the voices of people saying, you need to get this done. It's 2 o'clock, noon, on a Thursday.

[00:12:18] Kate: I know. I know.

[00:12:19] Hilary: My days. This isn't what you should be doing. And so for me, healing from that people pleasing is like getting rid of the shoulds, the ought life. Like, I ought to do this, or I should be doing this. And that's really hard when you learn from that early age to fit into other people's narratives in order to be accepted. It takes a lot of work to start having that self-acceptance and then attracting those people in.

[00:12:46] Kate: Yeah. And it's so much programming, decades of programming, decades of [Inaudible] up frustration, exhaustion, not saying what we really feel or mean because we want to be loved, accepted, and feel safe. I'm really listening to you, and my own journey too, it really is that desire to feel safe in our bodies, in our home, in the world, in our families.

[00:13:09] And a lot of people, even people who love us or claim to love us, who make us feel anything but safe. And without blaming them or shaming them, I feel like a lot of people are coming to terms with who are on this self-worth journey, healing journey, recovery journey, health journey. And for me, I had to ask you a question, how does someone like me even end up in a scenario like this? And childhood comes up. Yeah. And without shaming or blaming parents, but all of us are unhealed in our own way-- all of us.

[00:13:42] Hilary: And that's where we can start. And this is something I've done, stop asking the question why, and start asking the question how. So I used to like, why am I like this? Why am I an addict? Why am I divorced? Why am I a single mom? I'm supposed to be this. And it's like, okay, why or how can I show up for my son?

[00:14:00] How can I show up for myself? How can I find my purpose? How can I find happiness? And shifting that narrative. And that's also something that sounds really easy to do. It's like, oh, that's easy. Just start asking these questions. But when we're taught and we're ingrained to ask these, figure it out, ask the why, dig deep, it's like sometimes we don't know, but we do have a solution on how to feel better, get better, be better, show up better for ourselves.

[00:14:23] Kate: Absolutely. And it's owning that it's not our fault how we were traumatized or that we were traumatized. But it is 100% our responsibility to deal with that trauma and heal that. And we can see the detriment of those who choose not to do the work. And listen, I think it all the time.

[00:14:40] I see why so many people don't want to do this work or go to therapy once or twice and think that they're healed. That's like going to the gym twice and expecting to be fit like an Olympic athlete. It's a joke and laughable, and yet people do one thing or have one tough conversation and think, okay, that was enough.

[00:14:59] And just like physical fitness, it is a lifetime journey, and you have to go consistently. But I see why people don't go at all, why people want to throw in the towel or don't do it. I had a day recently, and I just started cursing because I felt like I was regressing. But what my coach helped me understand is that, no, you yelling, you being so upset is you finally expressing that pent up rage that you were not allowed to express because you need to be nice.

[00:15:26] You need to be feminine. You need to be polite. You can't offend or hurt other people while you're destroying yourself essentially. I even have the chills right now just releasing this. And so something that was huge, I'm curious your take on this, that my coach said to me yesterday, that just every now and then you have this massive aha moment, and you can't answer their question logically.

[00:15:48] But her whole point was you don't need this other person to do anything for you to heal. For instance, mine was, I need this person to own and acknowledge the pain that they have caused and apologize for it. And what this coach was saying is, you don't. Yes, that would be lovely. That would be nice.

[00:16:09] But my healing is independent of their healing and their unwillingness or inability to heal does not make me a victim. And I know that's getting a little deep, but then again it goes back to-- sometimes it's just I'm like, "Oh, more work for me." But then you get to own the results. How do you feel about that, not having to wait? I know maybe for you, whether it's an ex-husband, a parent, or something like that, not waiting around for them to apologize or treat you right before you feel whole, complete, or healed.

[00:16:39] Hilary: So an exercise I'd love to share if I can that I've done around some of that is I went through a breathwork training, and I did this. I wrote a letter what would I need to hear from that person to feel better. And I wrote a letter to myself as if it was from that person. And I read it and then I ripped it up, and I did this insane breathwork session and cried and got it out.

[00:17:04] But, to your point, there's some people that aren't willing to ever look at it because that's really hard too. It's really hard to be vulnerable. It's really hard to own mistakes. It's really hard to say, "You know what? I really messed up." Or, "You know what? I'm selfish." Or, "I am angry." But I think she's spot on because that just holds us back.

[00:17:26] If I'm giving the power to anybody outside of myself, if I'm giving the power to that person to give me an apology to make me feel better, then I am the victim. Then I stay stuck in that place versus me taking my power back and saying-- also an example. I have some heated conversations with my ex. That person in my life is going to be all like secretive about it.

[00:17:49] We have these like, we're not married for a reason, and we also see child raising differently. We don't see a lot of things the same way. And so what I've learned to do is when we get spun up, I can say, oh-- I get off the phone. I talk to Greg or I talk to my therapist, and I'm like, he didn't. He said--

[00:18:09] And what I've learned to do is say, I feel very vulnerable in this moment. I feel very sad by that conversation. I feel I wasn't heard. I don't say it to him. I say it to Greg or I say it to someone else because that's focused on me. Because if I continued to say he did this, he did that, and I was wronged, I'm giving all my power away.

[00:18:30] And when I started to reframe it in that way and saying like, "Oh, just keep coming back to me. Stop abandoning myself and come back and say, I feel my voice wasn't heard and all of those things, I'll never get validation for those, but at least I can own it and take my power and to say, "This is how I'm feeling right now."

[00:18:49] Kate: Yeah. That was so good. Breathwork is something I've discovered recently, and it has been life changing for me. I was on this journey the other night where-- and it is. It's an altered state of reality. And someone who used to like alcohol, and I like some mind-altering things, alcohol included, I'm too sensitive to get into drugs or anything, but yeah, I love alcohol. We've all smoked pot at one time, I would think. I don't know.

[00:19:18] Hilary: I have.

[00:19:19] Kate: Yeah. It's like, whatever. And then people who do narcotics or anything else that they want to, and with no judgment, I want to invite them to my breathwork evenings and tell them, you go on this really healthy, healing, mind-altering journey. And I was in a place of loving people who have caused me great harm and hugging them and saying to them, I love you. I forgive you, to my higher self. And it was just so healing.

[00:19:44] Hilary: It's called psychedelic breathwork because it feels like your DMT is elevated when you start breathing in a certain way, depending. There's so many different types or so many different things, breath holds. But to your point, that takes work too. Having intention, going to a breathwork or logging onto a computer and being present for 28 to 40 minutes or an hour, however long it is, is intentional, and it's work.

[00:20:08] Taking a narcotic is easy. And so to your point, it's easier to take something, to ingest something, or drink something that's going to give you that feeling versus having the intention of showing up for yourself, putting in the work, shedding, regulating. That takes work.

[00:20:25] Kate: Yeah, it is. But it's so worth it. And then the other night I even caught myself. It sounds so funny to say, but I thought, gosh, I'm getting better at breathing. Even just noticing the somatic effects in my body and just, again, feeling euphoria from breathing. And it sounds insane. And I don't think it's this audience. I think this audience is open to it. Thank you. Thank you for being here.

[00:20:47] But I can hear some people just smiling at me, almost coddling me and saying like, "Oh, that's so great for you." Or, "How nice." Or it's this cute little thing that I do. And why anyone would say no to that. And again, it's our society that normalizes and celebrates and constantly pushes with advertising dollars and marketing that drinking is the thing to do.

[00:21:09] Oh, you've had a bad day. Have a drink. Oh, you're tired. Have a drink. Everything is have a drink or something. There's no commercials like, go do breathwork, go to coaching. I know we laugh about it. Going back quickly to even if you're struggling with a difficult or challenging person in your life, I think of something my mentor said to me years ago that our relationships are our life assignments. And immediate family, spouses, ex-spouses, children, lifetime assignments.

[00:21:39] And the thing she said with that is that doesn't mean you will like them. And it was so funny, but it is that lifetime assignment. It's going to bring up all your stuff. And so I think if we can reframe these people as challenging as they can be at times as a gift, because it makes us, if we're willing, be the best versions of ourselves. How do you feel about that notion that relationships are assignments?

[00:22:04] Hilary: I say that he's my greatest teacher in life because he shows me all the areas that I still need to work on-- patience, compassion. Because if I wat to be the person that I say I am, that's my number one test. If I can be compassionate, empathetic, kind, hold space for someone where we don't get along, then that's pretty powerful. 100%.

[00:22:28] There's also this idea, and this is a little bit esoteric, that the people that you have the most challenging relationships with here on earth are actually your best friends in the afterlife, and you're sent here together to work out trauma or karmic issues or whatever. And I'm like, "Oh." And I like that too.

[00:22:47] Kate: I like that too. And that's why I, even when I'm just like, this isn't working, or it's not going fast enough, or I've got real "work" to do because I have bills to pay, I think this is the work. And I really want to master this because I can feel that it raises my vibration, and from this place I attract the best partners, romantic, friendship, business, the opportunities.

[00:23:08] I don't have to try so hard. I attract easy money and fun opportunities and experiences. And so that for me is worth putting in the work because you just become this person. Because like you, I've achieved the success on the outside, and you make the great money. You're doing all of that.

[00:23:23] You're making an impact. People are impressed with what you're doing, not that that matters, but it used to for me. But then you're not happy. And I see that with clients I work with. They have the 5-billion-dollar hedge fund, and they-- we don't need to work on how to make more money or be successful financially. They've got that down.

[00:23:40] But they say, "Kate, I still don't feel fulfilled. What does all this mean? I want my life to be more meaningful." And they've got great families too, so it's about working on legacy and what you want to leave behind. And so the days where I feel like I'm lacking in terms of, well, I don't have the bestselling book in the world, and I don't live in the, 50-million-dollar mansion up the street. I'm not doing enough. It's, first of all, to stop comparing.

[00:24:04] And second of all, the work that I'm doing is so special and matters so much. And even talking to you, I can feel, hear, experience the work that you've done, and it's so refreshing. And so I take nothing away from the people on the podcasts or in the world that are talking about their hundred-million-dollar empire, whatever they're doing, and they're on all the bestsellers and things like that.

[00:24:26] But for me, what's more impressive and what's more wealthy is having conversations like this. The wealth is right here in our body, in our health, the physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, getting that right, and letting everything flow from that. Versus, you see so many people, Steve Jobs, one of the greatest inventors of our time, and he was so sick and died young. So for me it really is about, Getting this vessel, getting the instrument right, and letting everything come from there.

[00:24:56] Hilary: And what you were saying, it reminded me of the law of attraction. And so when I'm feeling chaotic, stressed, or like people aren't showing up, or I'm just like, "ah," I have to come back to me. What am I doing for myself? I wasn't working out. I wasn't meditating. I wasn't doing my breathwork. I wasn't eating well, all of the things that I need to take care of myself.

[00:25:15] And so it comes back to that. When I take care of myself, when I show up and do the things I need to do, when I have these really beautiful conversations with authentic people that fill up my cup, when I get up in the morning and just go for a walk outside in nature, whatever that is, I start to feel better.

[00:25:31] When I start to feel better, like you're saying, you start to attract those things. And I think a powerful question goes like, one, what is the definition of success? You know what I mean? Because to your point too, I have friends that live in these beautiful homes in Washington, D.C, and they're married for 15 years, and they have three kids. When I moved, I took my son, my laptop, my clothes, my books, and I started over at 43. How old am I? Three years ago.

[00:25:59] Kate: I still think I'm 27.

[00:26:01] Hilary: Yeah, I know. How old am I? And to me at first, that was the most embarrassing thing in the world. I'm like, I'm living in an apartment with my son, and we're starting over. This isn't how it's supposed to be. It took me a good year to get to the place where it's like, but I'm happy. And that's worth more than-- and then you talk to people and they're like, "Oh, yeah." Like you said, my husband's having an affair, and this is happening here, and that. And you're like, "Oh. Wait, so you're not as happy as you seem on the outside."

[00:26:30] But also something that just came up when you were saying that, it's like, if you could strip away everything and make everybody equal, I think you'd find that people that are the happiest are the ones that have done the work, that don't have those external things. Because if we all were given one outfit and the same house and whatever it was, without the hierarchy or the validation or the money, without the numbers, no social media, whatever, I think you would see who's really done the work based on just how happy they show up every day in their life.

[00:26:59] Kate: I know.

[00:27:00] Hilary: Do you agree with that?

[00:27:01] Kate: And how they show up for others.

[00:27:02] Hilary: Yeah.

[00:27:03] Kate: For me, I love nice stuff. I'm not going to pretend I don't. My moon is in cancer. For those that don't know me, my house is my everything. It's, are you a moon in cancer too?

[00:27:13] Hilary: I'm a Pisces sun, Cancer moon, Scorpio rising.

[00:27:17] Kate: Wow. We got a heavy, intense, emotional gallery. That's why you're my type of girl.

[00:27:24] Hilary: I'm all water.

[00:27:24] Kate: You can meet me in the depths of the ocean. We're the scuba divers on the ocean floor. But that's where all the best fish are, and all the things. We're friends with the octopus. I love that documentary, My Friend The Octopus.

[00:27:40] Hilary: Yes, beautiful.

[00:27:42] Kate: Yes. So I do feel that. Moon in cancer, I want my home as my sanctuary. I want to be comfortable. But even as you're talking, and I love my nice things, but I find I spend the majority of my time in my pajamas and my Pilates and walking clothes. I've closets full of clothes I rarely wear. And then I think with my healing, my vice was pizza, online shopping, and collecting stuff. Somehow that was supposed to fill me up.

[00:28:11] And now I have all this stuff, and it's nice, and I like it, and I wear it occasionally, but as I've healed, I want less stuff. I want more in spending my time, energy, money on the meditation place, red light therapy, and, Hilary, let's go to Italy and have really good food, look at beautiful things, and have an experience rather than all this stuff.

[00:28:32] I really would love for you to shed some insight on the courage to really take control of your life and to get sober and be on this journey for so long and to keep just doing more and more modalities to heal and be healthy.

[00:28:45] For someone who's listening right now and maybe isn't fully ready to accept that they have a problem or don't think that they do, or maybe they're even just having one drink a day, but you're like, "Gosh, I'd like a healthier outlet," is there some insight or I guess just loving guidance you could share, not to tell anybody what to do, but to maybe put themselves on a healthier path and maybe replace the alcohol with breathwork or something else that's really helped you?

[00:29:15] Hilary: So two things. One, the one thing that really helped me when I first got sober is I called a friend. She had MySpace and it said, I don't drink, and I don't smoke. And I was like, I did both with you, smoked a lot of stuff and drank a lot of things. And so I remember I emailed or DM her through MySpace, and she said, "Well, I quit drinking." I'm like, "Why?" She said, "I was just drinking too much." And she said, "Your elevator's going down, and you can choose to get off at any time."

[00:29:49] Kate: Oh.

[00:29:49] Hilary: And so what she was saying was like, it's not going to get better. So if alcohol or drugs are truly an issue, you may wake up one day and say, "This is enough. I want to get help." But if you have the disease of substance use disorder, alcohol use disorder, you're going to need more than just the, "I'm going to quit." Because it's the brain disease. And so that's that thinking of, I'm not enough. There's a spiritual emptiness inside of me.

[00:30:18] I thought I was the center of the world when I was drinking. I'm so unique, and I'm so special. And if you understood what I was going through, then you would see it my way too, where I just needed to realize that there's something else out there, whether it's God, Source, Universe, Spirit, Allah, my dog, whatever it is.

[00:30:37] It's not me. I don't run the show all the time. And so the elevator analogy was really helpful for me. And then a tool that I use, and I share with a lot of women, because we get so caught up in the what should I be doing? The same thing. It's like, well, I can't do breathwork because this. Or I can't go for an hour run because I'm a single mom. Or I can't get out and do a yoga class because I don't have the funds or the money to do it.

[00:31:01] Whatever it might be, you can always come home to yourself. And what I mean by that is just getting silent, and I sit really still, and I put my hand on my heart and I just breathe, and I try to quiet my mind, which is challenging sometimes, and I just say, "What do you need? What do you need? What do you need?"

[00:31:18] And I say it over and over again, so it becomes a mantra. And if I stay there long enough, something comes through, like, "I'm really lonely." Or I'll cry. And I just release all of the nervous stuckness, or the anxiety. Or I'm like, "I actually just miss my dad. I wish I could talk to him."

[00:31:40] Something will come through that's telling me what my soul needs or what my inner being, my inner child, what she needs, not what I should be doing, what I want to be doing. Fill in the blank. And so I think those two things are really helpful. I also think if you're questioning a relationship with alcohol, then there's a good chance that there's an issue with it.

[00:32:05] Kate: Yeah.

[00:32:05] Hilary: Because most people, like my best friend at her 30th birthday party had half a glass of wine or half a glass of champagne. And I was like, what are you doing? She's like, "I just don't want any more." I'm like, "What? I don't understand." I couldn't understand. I had been sober a year. And she's like, "Yeah."

[00:32:25] So people that don't have a problem can take it or leave it. But if it's something that's constantly showing up in your life, or it's making that choice ahead of other things and starting to put those unhealthy habits, then I think there's a good reason to take a closer look at the act itself and then why. What is it that you're looking to--

[00:32:44] Kate: Yeah. And it almost and sounds like reparenting ourselves, can feel weird regardless of what kind of childhood you had, or what kind of parents that you have or had, that notion of, what do you need? That's something you would say to a small child. And might seem foreign, especially if you're used to really harsh critical self-talk, which I was used to.

[00:33:08] It's talking to yourself gently. What do you need? Or I even think when the dog is upset and even in the little baby voice, like, it's okay. But even saying to yourself, "It's okay. What do you need?" How you would to a little puppy. It's okay. Come here, sweetie. I've got you. Or a little child, whether it's your child or a friend's or your niece or nephew.

[00:33:27] Like, "It's okay, sweetie. Come here. I've got you." And you're soothing them, and you're letting them know that they're safe and you've got them and you see what that does for them. And for whatever reason, it can be hard for us to offer that to ourselves, but how healing that is.

[00:33:42] And to take that adult time out, I call it my sit and stare time, and check in. How are you? What do you need? What can I do for you? And really becoming practice at listening to the answer and then doing that. And often the answer is, I am so burned out. I need time off. And then that other voice comes in like, "Well, you can't do that. You've got all these things to do." And la la la.

[00:34:02] And what we're both talking about, I think even before we hit record, was that notion of, okay, it's a Thursday. I should be working. I should be sitting in front of my computer or at a desk somewhere from 8:00AM to 7:00PM, or whatever your hours are. And I think, why?

[00:34:18] And I think in our generation, it's that programming. But now, I'm tuning into a programming of, I work four hours a week, and I'm a billionaire. Which sounds absurd and a lot of people will laugh at that. So I don't recommend going around saying that to people, but think to yourself that little delulu, and maybe it's not being a billionaire, and you don't want or need that.

[00:34:34] But I work four hours a day, or I work two hours a day in front of the computer, get what I need to get done. And the rest of the time I do this, tend to my child, do these other needs. What has been a really powerful shift or reframe or perspective change that you've really, I guess, owned and adopted that's really supported you on your recovery journey?

[00:34:58] Hilary: So going on what you just said is reframing. Language is super important. I think your cells are listening to everything your brain says. And so even things like, "Oh, I need to do this," I'm like, "I want to." And I know it sounds silly and people are like, "That's stupid."

[00:35:14] I heard someone say it once, like, "Happiness is for a three-year-old." I'm like, "I'm so sorry. That sounds like a horrible way to live." And I have to reframe it in my mind. I choose to reframe it in my mind to say like, I get to do the laundry, and I get to live in a safe home with my son, and we have safe beds. And that goes back to gratitude.

[00:35:38] I'd say if there's anything, it's always gratitude because-- and I do it too. And I have to remind myself after 17 years, I can still look for-- I gave this example. Once I was the MC at a luncheon. We were raising money for scholarships for women to get the treatment. And there was one woman, and she'd been nasty to me before, and she got up and walked out every time I got up to the podium. We raised money. People came up to me in tears. People said it was so great. You know what I was focused on? That one woman.

[00:36:08] Kate: And so one, it's acknowledging it. And then it's making an action. It's awareness first, acknowledgement second, and then action third because you have to be aware of the pattern. And then acknowledge it's actually a thing and then taking an action to change it.

[00:36:25] Hilary: And so I think for me coming back, it's always gratitude. What are the things I'm grateful for, not the things I'm missing out on? And that shifts things in a way that feels better. And to your point, there are people listening that are probably like, "That's so dumb. That's so easy. Do you really write a gratitude list?" I'm like, "It makes me feel better. And so I'm going to do it." So it helps. And so it's finding--

[00:36:50] Kate: The whole phrase, let it go, I find very harsh and dismissive, and it's easier said than done. And so I can even hear someone saying, the nasty woman, for instance, is, "Oh, just let it go." Or, "Who cares?" Or, "It doesn't matter". And it's like, well, it's clearly has impacted me. And so I say to my coach a lot, I just want to release these people. And it's usually a romantic partner.

[00:37:15] I just want to release this person. And the shift I've had around it is, and what I think of you with that woman, is releasing the person part of ourselves that is attached to them liking us, loving us, treating us in a certain way. And then that comes back to-- it usually is from childhood or something.

[00:37:33] Again, we want to be liked. We want people to acknowledge us. It's a human condition, so there's nothing wrong with it. But the more work we do in ourselves, you can maybe notice-- something I want to say to you, because you are the light, you can maybe notice me like, ooh, or like, that doesn't feel good.

[00:37:51] But then you put your energy back on, like what you're doing, your mission, and all the people who love you. Something that's coming to mind that I say when it's an energy like that is-- because even in the park last night, I'm just minding my business bopping around, and I'm glad I had dark sunglasses on, but I could see this woman just staring/glaring.

[00:38:07] And I don't know if they know they're doing it, but I start singing the Elton John song, Blinded by the Light. I'm like, "Oh, they're just blinded by the light." Because you're the light. If I was there and you'd be like, "Ooh, that woman," I'm like, "Oh yeah, she's just blinded by the light." I'm going to turn you up. Shine even brighter, sister.

[00:38:25] Hilary: I love that. I'm going to use that. Oh my gosh. I will attribute it to you whenever I say it. That is amazing, yes.

[00:38:34] Kate: She's just blinded by the light. You can't blame her.

[00:38:39] Hilary: Love it. Yes. Okay. I love that.

[00:38:46] Kate: It's like that friend one time we were at a bar or something and one guy says to my friend like, "Oh my gosh, I love your friend. I want to marry her." And there's that part of you that likes to be desired or something, but my friend's like, "Ah, get in line."

[00:38:55] And so it's that same thing where it's just like, you're the light. And some people love it. They want to lie out and get tanned by your light, and other people are cursing the sun. So again, it's just always had those good little reframes in our back pocket because you do have a big mission.

[00:39:11] And I'd like to talk about that right now and how you are helping women and others and more about the Right Room and just how you're really taking your mission. And look, you put your money where your mouth is. You've done this now for 17 years. Every time I talk to you, more and more training and more and more wisdom to drop. So tell us a little bit about how you're helping people and how we can work with you.

[00:39:34] Hilary: Oh my gosh. So the Right Room, that's a funny story. The name came from my partner. So I worked with a coach when I was transitioning out of my marriage, and it was a huge catalyst in my healing. Because you want someone to see you and call you on your BS, but also in a loving way.

[00:39:55] And I found this woman, Gabby, and I worked with her for six months, and it was so transformative because she really helped me reframe a lot of things. She would help me recognize when I had anxiety. She's like, "You don't have to know how it got there, but you are responsible for moving it out." So what are you going to do today?

[00:40:12] You're going to go for a walk, jumping jacks. You're going to jump on a trampoline. And so she really, really helped me the six months I worked with her. And then I had the opportunity to go through a holistic certification course, the same thing, emotional, spiritual, mental, and physical. And so I went through the six-month course myself, got certified.

[00:40:33] Because I had just shared about my recovery, I had done a lot of work. I'm a knowledge seeker. I love information, and I love sharing information. I have all these tools, yoga, Pilates, breathwork, mindfulness, meditation, Reiki, reflexology, studying Hakomi, which is nervous system regulation now, all these tools.

[00:40:52] Kate: You need your own school, sister.

[00:40:53] Hilary: I do. It's so good. I was starting a coaching program to work with women. So it's one-on-one group coaching, and I hadn't found a name, and I had done a podcast and I was just speaking like we are now, and I said, "It wasn't that my voice was wrong. It's just that I was in the wrong room."

[00:41:10] And it wasn't until I walked into the right room, surrounded by people because I knew myself. And so I started to surround myself with people that saw me for who I am and authentically love me that I was in the right room. And I use this analogy. And so my partner was traveling, and he called me, he goes, "It's the right room." And I was like, "Huh? What do you mean?" He goes, "That's the name. It's the right room." And I was like--

[00:41:32] Kate: I love that.

[00:41:33] Hilary: Because I was doing empowered feminine and nothing was really feeling like-- I was like, "Yes, it's the right room."

[00:41:41] Kate: The right room is perfect.

[00:41:43] Hilary: The right room. So it's about being in the right room. And the right room starts with finding our voice. And we've gone through a lot of really powerful-- what does finding your voice mean? And it's tapping into your neurism. What does that mean? And so many women I work with, they're like, "I don't understand why this isn't working and that's not working."

[00:41:59] I'm like, "Okay, what are your core values?" And they're like, "I don't know." I was like, "Okay." Because you're not taught these things. Have you read Women Who Run with the Wolves?

[00:42:11] Kate: Obsessed.

[00:42:13] Hilary: We're not taught these things. We're not taught to listen to our intuition. We're not taught to support women. It doesn't matter-- if you like food or sex or money, then you are not a proper lady or feminine or a woman. And you're like, "Oh." It's shame. We control people and women by shaming them. And the same reason why I, with my recovery, stayed quiet about it. Because it was that shame of, "Women don't drink like that." Well, this woman does.

[00:42:38] And I'm sure that there are other women out there that do too. And so just using that voice to share. And so the Right Room came about. It was in place, and he shared the name. And after that it took off. And so we do one on one, which, it's really intimate, high touch, deep work, with breathwork and goal setting, trauma, some trauma informed.

[00:42:59] We do nervous system regulation work one on one with women. And then we have groups. We did a six-week sober cohort with women because there's also this thing between 5 and 10 years where a lot of women feel alone because there's a lot of support the first five years.

[00:43:11] And then life starts to come in and you start to look outside of recovery for what do I like. You start to come into your own, and there's not a lot of support for that. So we created some groups for women in that space. Some were sober curious and some were identified as substance use disorder, women with substance use disorder.

[00:43:28] And so a couple of other fun things. The podcast is coming out this summer, but like you said, I'm like, who's going to listen? What if nobody? And so I had to get over that. It's like, is it to get people to like me, or is it to help people and share? And so again, it's that reframing of the story of, I don't need to use my voice.

[00:43:47] Kate: Yeah. And I want to hear from you, and you've done so much work. So then from the outside, I'm like, at least to me, you owe it to me to share some. Because I can't get on Zoom or a Riverside or a coffee date with you every day, and I want to be able to click a button and tune in and hear some wisdom and then call you up and say, "Oh my gosh." Or like, "You know what? You need to come to LA and have a spot where you can do a retreat." Or, "Why don't you speak here." Or, "Let's collaborate." Or, "I'm going to introduce you to my friend because she needs to be in the Right Room. That's how it happens.

[00:44:20] So it's so funny because, as you're talking, questions come up, and what I wanted to ask you, and it's along those lines, is what keeps you going on the challenging days or the moments where your brain, and it's not even us, it's that thing that's still not properly healed that's like, what's the point? Why are you doing this? Who cares? Why does it matter? What keeps you going?

[00:44:41] Hilary: Sorry. I've known what it feels like to struggle with addiction. I know what it feels like to navigate a challenging divorce. And I know how lonely, afraid, scared, and worthless I felt during all of that. So this is a twofold. One, is I owe it to myself to truly find happiness and joy in every day.

[00:45:09] And not every day is happy, and not every day is perfect. I'm not saying that. But I owe that to that little girl, that little Hilary. And I owe that to me as a woman, because this is my life, and I get to choose how it looks. And so there are some days when I'm like, F it.

[00:45:28] Kate: Yeah, yeah.

[00:45:29] Hilary: Because it's not perfect. I'm not perfect. We're not perfect. And there are some hard days. I come back to that. And days when I still don't feel worthy enough to do it for myself, I look at my son. He'll never see me drunk or drink. And I'm so grateful for that. But he also deserves a mother that shows up present and connected and sees him for who he is and not try to make him something else.

[00:45:59] And so I want him, as often as I can, to feel like he can truly be himself, he can be his authentic version of himself to get my love and attachment. And if I can give him that, then I've succeeded as a mom.

[00:46:15] Kate: How can we see and hear and acknowledge our children better?

[00:46:23] Hilary: Heal ourselves. And I'll give you an example why I say that, because if I wake up and I'm in a bad mood, I'm thinking about work, I'm cranky, I'm stressed, I pick up my son from school and he's had a bad day, and he's cranky because he's a Gemini and an Aries rising--

[00:46:46] Kate: I love you. So good.

[00:46:48] Hilary: So I pick him up, and he's in a mood because he's a little human too. And I look back and I'm like, "Oh, you don't understand. You don't know the day I've had. What's hard in your life? You just came from kindergarten. You know what? I can't go to your room. I can't deal with you right now."

[00:47:05] So what does that teach him? That teaches him that he's too much, that he can't come to me and share how he feels, that I'm not able to handle my emotions, let alone his. And he might not consciously think that. On a subconscious level, he's going to learn, okay, well, if mommy's in a bad mood, then I can't express myself the way I want to.

[00:47:24] He's seven, and I'm 46. Whose responsibility is it? It's not his. It's mine. And so I choose to regulate. Self-regulation and nervous system regulation has been one of the biggest and most profound tools that I've found in healing because I didn't realize even after all the work-- and my therapist said, she's like, "You can do so much work, but if your nervous system is so dysregulated, that work doesn't have a place to land." So it's just bouncing.

[00:47:53] Kate: Ooh.

[00:47:53] Hilary: So I regulate 10 times a day. If I have a stressful call, if I'm feeling disconnected from my partner, if I am going to pick up Alexander and I'm feeling frenetic and I'm talking too quickly, I'm like-- so now I've learned if I'm looping, if I start looping the stories, you're not good enough-- because that's the nervous system. That's the brain trying to take over my body.

[00:48:16] So I just come back to my heart, and I just breathe. And so I think as parents, the best thing we can do is take care of ourselves to show up present. Because life is going to happen, and it's not perfect. And in those moments, because I get cranky and tired at night and Alexander gets crazy and silly. There are definitely times I'm like, "Please get out of the bath." I'm like, "Honey, come on. Alexander, Alexander." And then finally I'm like, we've got to get into bed.

[00:48:43] And it's not yelling. To him it is, if I'm like, "We have to go now." And I said, okay, can we have a do over? That wasn't how I want to show up for you. But it teaches him too that I'm an adult, and I make mistakes, and that's okay. And to own it. And that he doesn't have to be anything other than who he is. And so that's a lot. But I think the biggest thing we can do as parents is take care of ourselves and come from--

[00:49:05] Kate: Thank you so much for saying that and owning it. I'm not a parent, but I always download soundbites as a journalist, and I downloaded something recently that said something like, I'm paraphrasing now, but essentially, "Stop taking the pain that you didn't heal from your childhood out on your kids."

[00:49:27] And you see it again and again. And I say this without shaming and blaming, and we're all humans, and parenting is the most difficult job there is, and I can say that as a non-parent, as the fun auntie who just gets all fun and none of the hard responsibilities. So for you to first acknowledge and say, you need to heal yourself was so powerful, and you could have even stopped there, but then to even explain it and acknowledge that, yeah, he's a little cranky human at times too. We all are.

[00:49:53] It's so powerful, you teaching that. And we talk about redefining success. Success to me is having that knowledge and owning that and then working on that truth rather than, well, I'm a good parent because I give them everything or I buy them everything, and just being present for your son. I could go down a whole tangent and rabbit hole about this and what everyone's talking about success or what success means to most people.

[00:50:16] But what you just said to me is such a high level of success, and so thank you. And I just love that you can teach this to more people, which is another reason to do your podcast. And it takes people a few times to hear something. So even just talking about that concept again and again, it will start to land with people, and hopefully they can start to show up differently for first themselves and then therefore their children.

[00:50:40] Hilary: Thank you. Because you think of this hierarchy too. Because as parents, we're like, "Well, I wasn't listened to when I was a child. So why do I need to listen to you?" And that's how the generational trauma is passed on. And that's how it takes one person to stop that.

[00:50:53] It takes one person in a lineage to stop that and say, you are valuable exactly how you are. And again, this is not knocking any parent because we're parented the way we know. And until you'd say like, "Wait a second. How did I feel when I was little and how do I want to make an impact and change on my child?" That's it.

[00:51:09] Kate: Thank you for saying that. Yeah, I have an example, but I'm like, you said it best. We'll leave it there. I have to know, and then I'll take us out here with just one more question, but how do you think your brother's success and also his public struggles with his own mental health impacted you or didn't impact you?

[00:51:33] Hilary: So the only thing I can say there on this is that him sharing his struggles publicly gave me the strength and the willingness to share mine. Because I think there's this idea, it's so messed up, but men shouldn't be depressed or anxious or talk about their feelings, and women shouldn't be drunk, alcoholic, promiscuous, and talk about drugs.

[00:51:58] But there are a lot of people out there that feel that way. And so when Michael was talking about his struggles very publicly, because we saw, we knew. But when he decided to share and help other men and share so vulnerably, when I came to that crossroads and decision on sharing, like, what do I do? He was so bold and brave and doing it.

[00:52:21] And I truly was like, if I can help one person. And he's helping millions. The impact that he has on men with mental health struggles is just profound. But I said, seriously, if I could help one woman feel less alone, who's struggling to give up wine, then I'll feel successful. I'll feel happy. That's because I wanted to be seen.

[00:52:39] So if I can help one woman feel seen. Little did I know it would change the trajectory of my professional life because it did need to be said, and it did need to be heard. And that's the messages that I got back. But I think his bravery and his vulnerability were really instrumental in me sharing mine.

[00:52:58] Kate: And thank you so much for doing that because with him, with you, and with all of us, there's a public perception. And you look at arguably the greatest athlete, or one of the greatest athletes of all time, and all the glory and success and achievement, and you think that his life is this.

[00:53:17] And then for him to come out-- I'll never forget seeing a quote after he won eight Olympic gold medals. "My self-worth was so low, I didn't want to live." And just the contrast. And you think, what? How is that possible? Just like when you see all these beloved celebrities die by suicide, and then you again, that public perception and image of what we see on Instagram or what we see when we see you at the party and then for you to open up and share about struggles. And not to share but do something about it and then dedicate your life to helping others.

[00:53:49] It's so noble, and it's also a lesson in-- we always think, we're sitting at home on a Thursday and it's like, it's noon, and I haven't achieved anything today except for perhaps peace, calm, or connection with yourself, which is a huge achievement. And we're like, "Oh my gosh, look at what this person's doing." Or, "Look at what that person's doing."

[00:54:09] And so to really just be like Seabiscuit, another great athlete, put the progress on and focus on ourselves. And that's why it's so important to just share what's really going on. And then I just have that much more respect for you and your journey. And I could go on and on, but I just feel so called to ask because one of my favorite things to ask people that have a beautiful love story, and I know you've had a challenging love story as well, but how you found love again after a very heartbreaking and heart wrenching divorce and trauma.

[00:54:40] And to see pictures of you and Greg online and to experience him here for a second before we hit record, it makes me so happy to see you happy. And even saying to Greg, like, "Thanks for loving my girl properly." And he just lit up. And I said, "Oh my gosh, I'm vibrating with the energy between the two of you and the way you're looking at each other."

[00:54:59] So for those of us who need a little hope and just set some good vibration energy around love and finding new love, can you just share anything you want to share about this connection to take us out on a high note?

[00:55:14] Hilary: Yeah. He's the greatest man I've ever met.

[00:55:17] Kate: Oh, honey.

[00:55:17] Hilary: Aside from my dad. My dad is my person. Then I say to him every day, like, my dad would absolutely love you. A mutual friend introduced us, and it was at a conference. We'd both been a guest of our friend, Charlie Engle.

[00:55:33] And it was a wellness conference in Florida, Nona, Florida. And I don't know, full transparency, I went on Bumble for a week, and there was another one. He always forgets the name, but it doesn't matter. And I was like, "I can't do this." And so I was like, "I don't want to spend time meeting someone. I want to spend time getting to know someone I meet."

[00:55:58] And I was like, "I really would love a partner, but, you know what? If it's not for me, it's not for me. It's fine." And so then we met, and we were friends for a long time. We were really good friends. We talked every day. He shared some struggles that he was having. I'd shared some struggles I was having with our friend Charlie, and we just this really beautiful friendship. And then a couple of months down the line, he sent me a text, and I was like, "Oh, this is so beautiful."

[00:56:26] And he's like, "It's about you." He's a great writer. He went to NYU film school, and he's just so talented. He's like, "It's you." And so we'd already built this really beautiful foundation as really good friends. And so there wasn't a lot of discomfort or nothing was off the table, as far as like conversations. And I didn't have any shame about my past. He's also in recovery. So we've shared these really uncomfortable stories, but it's such a safe space.

[00:56:58] And we both do the work, and we both show up, and I can come to him and say, which is so new to me, for example, "I feel like I need a little bit of attention today. I'm feeling really sad and disconnected." He's like, "Okay, let's talk. Do you want to watch a movie? Do you want to go to dinner tonight?" There's a solution instead of me acting out being short with him or whatever. So we have a really powerful line of communication because it's safe. There's such safety.

[00:57:28] At first, I felt really shameful. I'm like, "It's better than anything I could have ever imagined." He's the greatest human I've ever met. He's loving. He's caring. He's supportive. He shines my light, and he talks about me like he's the proudest man. I hear him on the phone and he's like, "You should check out Hilary in the Right Room. She's changing women's lives. Can I tell you about it?"

[00:57:47] He has all this pride. And it feels so good to just know be seen exactly who you are and also have someone lift you up and say, keep going. And I see you, and I support you. How can I help you? And he's not intimidated by any of it. And that's beautiful.

[00:58:04] Kate: Do you see? I feel lit up. I'm glowing. Because there's days you don't want to do the work, or if you're like me, you're like, "F this. This isn't working." Do you see though, that the work you have put in and has raised your frequency, vibration, whatever we want to call it, to a place where you are a match for a love this extraordinary, for a man this extraordinary, to be treated this way, the work?

[00:58:32] Hilary: The work. 100%. Yeah. Otherwise I would have carried all of my baggage into this relationship. And I started to. And this is when I started working with a somatic therapist. He's on his phone a lot. And I was like, "Oh, he's this and he's that."

[00:58:46] And then I get short with him, and the therapist is like, "Ask him. Don't assign things to him." Or if he was tired one night, I'm like, "You just don't want to be with me." The stories, those stories that we set up. And so I've learned to have these conversations with him and check in with myself, meaning, am I putting my shit on him because I don't feel good in my skin, because I'm worried about a contract, or because I feel like I didn't give the best advice to somebody today, or I'm worried about my son in camp, or whatever it is.

[00:59:21] I don't want to put that on him either, so I always come back to myself first before I check in with him. But, yes, 100% doing the work, fixing my own trauma, getting rid of the looping stories. And conversation with a partner that's willing to have hard conversations is priceless.

[00:59:41] Kate: Oh, I appreciate you sharing that. Last question. I keep saying last question, but last question and then we'll let you go. And we appreciate you being here. How do we know when we are in the right room?

[00:59:54] Hilary: Great question. I think you know when you're in the right room, when you're not self-sabotaging, sacrificing your own needs, when you're able to say what you're truly feeling without consequences, when you have people that truly unconditionally love you, no matter what, because community is so important for me and I think for people in general to have community of people that see them exactly who they are.

[01:00:23] But that goes back to, there's a lot of work in that. Who are you? What does speaking your truth mean? What is your purpose? Are you living your purpose? What are your core values? Do you have a board of directors? There's so much there. But I think when you can feel good in your own skin, first and foremost.

[01:00:44] Kate: Thank you so much, Hilary Phelps and the Right Room. You are the right room. I feel like I'm in the right room here with you, even though it's an internet room. But this is the right room. I feel so lit up. There's a reason I put this top on and then you're in red. It's like a festive, holiday party.

[01:01:02] And I'm feeling the joy of the season. And we don't even know what season. It's a season of being in the right room. And thank you for helping us get there. Thank you for watching and listening. We truly appreciate you. Go check out Hilary and everything that she's up to and ways to work with her in the show notes. And we'll see all of you next time right here on Rawish. Have a great day. Thank you, Hilary.

[01:01:52] Hilary: Thank you, Kate.