An Intense Near-Death Experience, the DREAM, and the Mind-Blowing Revelation with Scott Mason

[00:00:01] Scott: In this dream, I was walking in a mansion, floor to ceiling bookcases. But these bookcases weren't full of books. They were full of baseball cards. Every baseball card that I pulled was identical. It had in big, bold letters, the words, "Your number's up." And my headshot. That dream actually was prophetic. I physically didn't die. But as you can imagine, the person, the soul that went into that hospital, he never left. The person that I am now is fundamentally different.

[00:01:04] Kate: I'm here with Scott Mason, and we're talking offline, and I said, "You know what? Stop, I got to hit Record." Because you need to hear what we're talking about. And I'm emotional. Yeah, And the show pony, or former show pony in me is like, "Ooh, that's unprofessional. You need to get it together. You're here to entertain. It's all about other people. And despite what you're going through, you put it aside and you show up and you perform, and you present, and you make it look easy. And you need to be polished and put together."

[00:01:34] And that's part of me, and I've got that part down. But the part of me that I'm leaning into, it's just the part of me who's just real. Because that's who I want to invite you to be. Not that polished, put together person, but the messy one behind the scenes. Off camera, I can cry.

[00:01:53] Scott is such a dear friend of mine. We'll get into that. And I want to talk about the importance of genuine friendship and authenticity and being able to cry and not feel like a burden or that you need to be positive or anything like that.

[00:02:05] And the reason that Scott is here and that Scott is on the first season is because he's one of the most impactful, inspiring people I've ever met. Not because he's president of a country, not because he has sold 30 million copies of his book yet, not because he's a celebrity, not because he dated Kim Kardashian or parties with Britney Spears or any of that.

[00:02:29] Because he has put in the work. And he's such an extraordinary human being who has even gone through a near-death experience. And that's what I want to talk about because I feel like I'm in this death and rebirth experience of this old identity of being the show pony.

[00:02:45] Then moving into this identity we were talking about before I hit Record, where I was saying to him, I watched an episode that I recorded, and I wasn't QVC Kate or NBC Kate or livestream Kate or life of the party Kate. I was talking like this to my guest, and I said, "That's boring." I need to be like, "Oh, hey everybody. Welcome." And say something quippy and witty.

[00:03:10] And that's me, but what's also is me is just to sit and listen. And so, I'm going on and on, which I did not intend to do, but I want to introduce you to Scott Mason, who is a man of many things. He's a former attorney. We were neighbors in New York City. I met him when I was on his podcast three years ago when I was launching my book.

[00:03:28] He's a two-time TEDx speaker. He's the only person I known who did not one, but two TEDx talks in a month. And if you don't know, that's not the same talk. They have to be completely different. So we'll get into that and his subject matter, which is really interesting and cool.

[00:03:43] He's done so many things we can get to, but this show is not about having people on because of what they've achieved, although there is that. But I really want to get into the stories that maybe they have never even shared publicly and talk about stuff that they're not normally talking about privately or publicly. I think that's more interesting and something we can all learn from. So I've spoken way too long here. Scott, thank you so much for being here.

[00:04:09] Scott: I am glad you spoke like that. I was taking it in. Part of me was like, who is this man you're talking about? I need to meet this Scott Mason person. But look, that reality, that realness that you showed, that's why we are so close, because we know that we can be real with each other, and that's a beautiful thing to me.

[00:04:29] Kate: Yeah. You said something to me. I called you after my TEDx talk came out a few months ago, and I was very emotional. And I do a lot of work around my emotions and embracing them, but I said to you, "Why am I so emotional?" And without much hesitation at all, you said, just so matter of factly, very lawyer-like, if I will, "Because you're stepping into your greatness."

[00:04:58] And that really landed and hit in that, sometimes, and sadly, stepping into our greatness makes us emotional or feel weird. It did bring up that initially, and I got through it very quickly, but these feelings of this fear of being seen. And what will people think? Because my TEDx talk was not how to make more money or buy a G-Wagon and use it as a tax write off.

[00:05:27] That's not a TED talk, but I see a lot of men talking about those things on podcasts, and I'm over it. But I'm speaking about losing the love of my life to suicide after losing another dear friend to suicide, and dark moments. And then having to keep that together and then present my research from Columbia, which were also both Columbia grads.

[00:05:45] So I love that for us and for Columbia. But you said to me before I hit Record today, you said, "She's not boring. She's authentic. I want to listen to her." And so two things there. I think it's important to have people in our life who can reflect back to us our truth and that we don't have to be all these things to be worthy of being listened to or entertaining. That just being is enough.

[00:06:14] Scott: I love that you are pointing that out. One of the things that drives me crazy, Kate, is this idea that somehow when you're honest with other people, it's being brutally honest about their flaws or about things that they could do differently or things that they could do better. Honesty can be that. Brutal honesty definitely is that if it's coming from a place of integrity and not just trying to hate on somebody.

[00:06:44] But we also forget there can be brutal honesty about the things that we love about someone. Now, that brutal honesty for me can be hard to take sometimes. But I think it needs to be shared. The brutal honesty about you was exactly what I said, that the person who was talking just with realness and vulnerability and left the QVC behind-- I love the QVC because it's exciting and it's dramatic and it is fun.

[00:07:08] But I also was drawn in by the person that was just saying what was on her mind with real feelings. And brutal honesty is not letting that person believe a lie, even if it's comforting, especially if that comfort is being found in the lie being painful. Scott, you are stupid. That's something I heard a lot, and it became comfortable for me to hear, that I don't have much of a little feather of a brain in my head.

[00:07:39] And so when people say, Scott, "You actually are pretty smart." That's a hard thing for me to hear. And it's painful. Its's embarrassing. And I think they're just saying that to flatter me or they're pity complimenting me. But the reality is maybe that they're telling you the brutal truth and you need to get that verbal slap on the face to be able to turn onto that. We don't do it enough.

[00:08:05] Kate: Why do you think, we think, or I'll say I think, but I think it's many of us think that we have to have all these bells and whistles and achievements and credentials and accomplishments? If you're a man, you need all the money. If you're a woman, you need the looks to be worthy of showing up anywhere.

[00:08:26] And for me, having to perform when just talking like I am now is enough. What is this that I think if I'm not showing up and doing the dog and pony show and entertaining you in a Kevin Hart or some other comedian type of way, that why bother? I get into, why even bother? Why show up at all?

[00:08:51] Scott: I do think personally because we as a culture are in transition from what was defined as entertaining and appropriate professional presentation style into another era. And that transition, particularly for those of us who might have grown up or been through our parents or whoever, exposed a lot to the old way, have a rocky road when it comes to truly embracing what today and tomorrow are going to look like from a presentation perspective.

[00:09:27] I read an article just earlier today, why isn't Hollywood producing any new movie stars like Tom Cruise or these other things? You know what? Maybe the eras of the Tom Cruises and the Carrie Grant and those people, the Brad Pitts, are over. Maybe people don't need all that stuff anymore unless they want to hate watch it or camp.

[00:09:47] And maybe the more gritty lived in attainment is who people are really looking for. Oprah, great example of someone who plays between eras and, in my opinion, is sometimes more effective than others. So she has character voices that she sometimes uses on her show. Those, to me, are phony and they're put on. Or she will present in certain ways sometimes that are clearly staged and designed to "entertain."

[00:10:20] Other times, her most memorable moments are when she had a wagon that she pulled out 50 pounds of fat representing what she had lost. That's humiliating to do. Or when she showed herself without any makeup. That wasn't glamorous at all. But that's the Oprah that we like, not the one that's on a weight loss commercial saying, "bread, bread."

[00:10:42] We know she's saying that line. We know you are Oprah. You've been through how many diets and you probably don't like bread. Come on. And we see through that. And I think that until we as a culture fully step into what this new era is, and it's hard because it involves a different level and a different type of talent, it's going to always feel a little bit weird.

[00:11:04] And vulnerability, listen, until you practice it a lot, and even then, if it's not hard and painful and embarrassing, then it's not real. And on a subconscious level, we all know that. We all know that. Who wants to be listening to someone, by the way, who's perfect and who has all their stuff together? What can they teach me?

[00:11:27] If you were born out of the womb looking good and your father was a movie director, and your idea of the struggle was a broken toenail, around all that sort of stuff, what are you going to teach me? What do you know about anything?

[00:11:42] Kate: Yeah. Thank you for that. I'm getting very emotional. You do this to me, which I think that's a good sign too. They say pay attention to how you feel when you're with someone and how you feel after you're with that person. And you do. You bring up the deep emotions in me, which is really beautiful.

[00:11:59] I think what you're speaking to too is different identities. And that's what we were talking to before the show, about I had identity that was the show pony, life of the party. My value was in performance and accomplishments and making you feel good and entertaining you, and the effect of my own needs and my own health and wellbeing and wanting to be liked. And that being safety.

[00:12:19] Kate: And now, I want to like myself and my choices, and I want to feel comfortable within my own body and honoring my own needs and then having something to give you authentically. And so stepping into a new identity can be challenging. And you do need people who are able to see you.

[00:12:37] And you're right. The people who have been through something, and this is not to say like, if you haven't been to hell and back, who are you to speak on this? Because there are scientists and people like that we need to speak to or need to hear from. But you have been through something that not a lot of people experience.

[00:12:53] And I think the people who do experience don't share even privately that often, but certainly not publicly. And I'm not sure why. Again, I think we are changing from the polished celebrity superstar movie stars into just the more raw, why I did the show, versions of humanity that aren't so manufactured.

[00:13:15] And you went through a near-death experience. You could have died. Thought you may die or will die. You were extremely ill. It came out of nowhere. Can you talk to us about that?

[00:13:29] Scott: Yeah. On the subject of raw, just to prepare anyone who is listening to or watching this, a lot of what I'm going to share is dark. It's disturbing. It's weird. And there may be times in which there are quite a few words coming out of my mouth that I do want people to understand that there's light at the end, and that this road, as hard as it may be to step through with me, it will be worth it.

[00:13:59] I also will share with you that it is of particular significance to me that we're having this conversation today, because tomorrow, as of the date of this recording, was one year ago when all began.

[00:14:18] Kate: You're kidding me.

[00:14:19] Scott: No. And that I'm having this conversation the day before the year anniversary of this thing with someone who I feel that I can trust with to create a space for me to share means everything to me. So I'm more than happy to talk about it. I'll be honest with you, I'll hold nothing back and hold nothing back with me.

[00:14:44] Kate: Thank you so much for that because it takes a lot to go through what you've been through, come out on the other side, and then to speak about it, because it can be triggering, and judgment can come up. Although I don't know why anyone would judge an illness or someone almost dying.

[00:14:59] But there is at least how I was raised, and in some older generations where there's this tendency to sweep things under the rug, to ignore. We don't talk about that. That's not positive. There's some stigma there and there's some shame there. Shame that you got an illness. I don't understand. But I see it and I see it play out in all these toxic family dynamics of, oh, how so and so doing? Oh, well, he's going through this, and we don't talk about him. How damaging that is and how destructive that is. I don't have enough negative words for it, but I'm done with that.

[00:15:36] Scott: No, the other thing too I wanted to just pipe in with that is, with men in particular, there's this, if you have vulnerability or the pain was more than you thought you could bear any of this stuff, somehow you're less than a man or you are undesirable as a mate, or you don't deserve to claim that mantle of manhood.

[00:15:56] Looking back, all of the great heroes in history went through stuff and they had to literally roll around in the mud and lose things before they emerged. And we can talk about crying and grief and loss and suffering that great men in history and myth have had. But all I want to say is everything that you just said is true and it's ridiculous.

[00:16:24] And men go through this a lot, and that's also part of why I want to be raw. Because I think that too many men, too many people across the board, being honest, but too many men think they can't be the way that I'm going to be with you, which is raw and honest, because it's embarrassing. I don't care. Being a man to me, being an adult male or female is at one point or another, simply not caring, and being a child is, to me, needing that approval. I'm beyond it. And this thing that I'm going to talk to you about helped get me there.

[00:16:59] Kate: A strong man is an emotionally intelligent man who is vulnerable, who is in touch with his feelings, who can share his feelings, who can hold space for another's feelings, who can empower other people to be in their feelings, whatever they are, whatever emotion is. A weak man is emotionally inept. So in case anyone didn't know, now you know. So take us back. I'm very like, raw and real. So take us back to a year ago where you're going about your day and what happened.

[00:17:30] Scott: Yeah. A year ago today, I was going about my own business. I had spent the weekend, going to some conferences, having a good time. I was spinning around, doing work, caught up in the frustrations of tech that wasn't working and happy about things that were working and networking and all these sorts of things.

[00:17:53] And then a year and a day from today, I went to bed, went to sleep, as I did any other night. And then around 3:00 in the morning I woke up in indescribable pain. I felt as though an ice pick, a metal ice pick was stabbing the back of my neck right at the base of my skull and it wouldn't stop. Now, there was nothing touching me, Kate, but I couldn't stop that.

[00:18:25] And it hurt so much I couldn't get back to sleep. And that night was the beginning of a cascading show of horrors that's even hard to think about, but I do believe in sharing because people need to hear it. I actually think that in hindsight it was all a gift, but I had to receive that gift, as awful as it was.

[00:18:54] I thought I had maybe twisted my neck lifting weights or maybe I had slept wrong or maybe it was time to get a new pillow or a new mattress. And so my spouse and I, at first, went shopping for a new pillow. Then I ordered a high-end orthopedic pillow that didn't do anything. So I was like, "Okay." And every night, I would be waking up with this for the next couple of nights.

[00:19:22] And then we switched around our mattress and all that sort of stuff. Nothing really changed. And then a few nights later, I woke up again, probably around 3:00 or 4:00. And so this was June of 2023. It was hot in New York City, and I live in an old brownstone that traps heat.

[00:19:46] And so really, there was no excuse for what I'm about to describe to have happened. I woke up shaking in cold, and I was just shivering uncontrollably. I literally felt, Kate, like a corpse. I was like, "This must be what it's like to be a zombie." Because I didn't feel as though I had living blood flowing through my body.

[00:20:09] And my husband woke up because he heard me. I was sleeping on a couch to be away from him because we knew at this point that I was ill. And I was chattering. I just couldn't stop. He woke up and the cold was so severe, it was just a bone cold. And he started piling mattresses and bath robes, anything that he could find on top of me to warm me up and nothing worked.

[00:20:42] And at some point, he was like, "I can't pile any more on you. We don't have anything else to put on you. What can I do?" And I'll never forget this moment of love. I just asked him to please hold my hand because I was so scared. I'd never felt this sort of cold before my life, and for a long time that night, he just held my hand.

[00:21:03] He stood by the couch and looked at me in the eye with warmth and love and care, and held my hand. Eventually, I went back to sleep, and then when I woke up, I was so hot, I couldn't believe it. I felt like I had just been thrown in boiling oil. And for the next few nights, that happened over and over, I would be so cold uncontrollably then hot, and my muscles started aching. And I started getting headaches on my left, sinus area.

[00:21:41] We gave me a COVID test. It came back negative. We did another covid test. It came back negative. I went to urgent care, and they were like, "Oh, you need some physical therapy. It's no big deal. We don't really see anything. It's not meningitis." I had meningitis when I was a little boy, and so I thought, is this possibly it coming back all over again?

[00:22:04] Meningitis can kill. It wasn't that. And they said, "If it's not getting any better, go see your doctor." And while this was happening, also some other things started to happen. They are terrible.

[00:22:20] Kate: Are you okay?

[00:22:21] Scott: Yeah. I'm totally okay. I'm just remembering it. And thank you so much for asking that.

[00:22:26] Kate: It's hard to relive it, right? Because you're back in your body, and it's so scary when you have no idea what's going on with your body. You're a seemingly very healthy man, and then you have no idea what's essentially taking over your body.

[00:22:42] Scott: Yeah. And Kate, that's such a good point. I am actually in extraordinarily good shape. I lift weights four times a week. I walk an hour every day. I eat a very lean diet. My waist size is the same as it was in high school. So it's not like this could really be attributed to anything.

[00:23:03] And in fact, later I was told that if I weren't in such good shape, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation today. I started dropping weight and I started losing focus. I couldn't focus on anything really. And then I started losing the desire to eat and drink, and then I started to sleep. And what I'm about to say next in particular is weird and shocking and disturbing, but it's the truth. And it goes as to perhaps most fundamentally what this story is all about. When I say I started to sleep, I mean I slept 16 hours one night, then 20 hours the next "night and day."

[00:24:07] And when I woke up after that 20-hour sleep, I woke up from what I call the dream. Now, Kate, I understand the difference between dreams and reality. I know that when I close my eyes and have a dream, it's not real. I know when I wake up that the experience I had was a dream. I don't remember dreams as though they are reality. And usually dreams just waft away. I remember them for three minutes and then they're gone. Or I remember a snippet of it.

[00:24:47] This was not like that. It was as if the veil between reality and this other world of the dream was tissue paper thin. I right now remember this as though it really happened, even though what happened couldn't possibly be true. In this dream, I was walking in a mansion, and this mansion was really tall, and it was old and had grand pianos and Turkish rugs and marble fireplaces and chandeliers and spiral staircases and all these.

[00:25:29] Kate: Really? I love it.

[00:25:30] Scott: Right.

[00:25:32] Kate: Let's move in.

[00:25:33] Scott: Right. Exactly. It would be good for a vampire movie or some British drama involving fights and servants. It's the place where we're both going to be living. And these mansions, there were rooms in them that were attached, and then the mansions were all attached to each other.

[00:25:53] And there were big doorway, things that you could go through from mansion to mansion. And each mansion and each room within each mansion had floor to ceiling bookcases. But these bookcases weren't full of books. And as I was walking from room to room and mansion to mansion, I was pulling out from these bookcases what they were full of, which was baseball cards.

[00:26:20] Every baseball card that I pulled, no matter what room it was in, no matter where it was, was identical. It had in big, bold letters, the words, "Your number's up." and my headshot.

[00:26:41] Kate: The fact that you remember all this-- I had a very vivid dream last night. I could not tell you one thing from it. And the fact that you remember this is so-- and being that sick, the card said, your numbers up?

[00:26:55] Scott: Yes, and my photo was above it. Every single one, room after room, card after card.

[00:27:02] Kate: No.

[00:27:05] Scott: The next morning I woke up, I tried to stand. My back was in so much pain that I collapsed. I remember trying to get some coffee and it spilled everywhere. And so I was rushed to the emergency room. I was in and out of consciousness. I don't remember a lot except when we first got to the emergency room, them telling my husband and I that this might be cancer in my spine or something worse.

[00:27:40] Them asking my husband whether we lived on a first floor or in an elevator building, and saying, "Whatever this is, you need to think about whether he's going to walk again." And then my husband, I don't remember this, but I remember late at night, or I know that late at night, at some point they got me into a hospital room, and he took a photo of me all hooked up to things, laying in this bed.

[00:28:11] I'm asleep. I'm just looking so gaunt and fragile in this photo. And later I asked him, "Why on earth did you take this photo?" And he said, "Scott, I didn't know if I'd see you again alive."

[00:28:30] Kate: Oh my gosh.

[00:28:32] Scott: I asked the doctor at some point when I was back conscious, I don't know if it was the next day or the day after. A lot of these early days are a blur. But I asked her, "Am I going to live? Am I going to die?" And she said, "I don't think so. We think we're going to be able to pull you through this, Scott." And I told her, Kate, I said, "I don't know." I told her about the dream. I said, "I think it means I'm going to die." She just looked at me. She had nothing to say.

[00:29:07] Kate: Wow.

[00:29:09] Scott: Before we go any further, I'll say to you that that dream actually was prophetic. It was. I physically didn't die. But as you can imagine, the person, the soul that went into that hospital, he never left. The person that I am now is fundamentally different. I've never ever been the same since my number was up. The dream was true.

[00:29:50] Kate: I'm just going to pause there for a second. I'm holding my hand over my heart, for those who can't see which means I'm really feeling things deeply. And it's interesting because before we hit Record today, I was sharing with you about this. I feel like I'm in the middle of two identities and that parts of the old Kate or even the old Kate is dead. She died.

[00:30:15] It's been this whole death and rebirth experience. And some of those parts needed to die, but you're still grieving. I grieve her. Sometimes I look at old videos or old photos and I said to you, "She looks so young and happy." Or, "She's glowing." Or, "It's before she went through that traumatic thing."

[00:30:31] And so maybe it's just a perception. Because I'll smile, like, I still look young and happy, but I'm different now and better. But sometimes I think we think, I'm not that innocent, young, happy. And so I'm not perfectly articulating my words right now because I'm feeling all of this.

[00:30:48] I'm so empathetic for better or worse. So I'm feeling it all in my body. And also the pain that we didn't-- there was moments where I'm like, "Oh my gosh. Is Scott going to die?" And finding this news. And to be out of commission for that many months. And I'll let you pick up the story.

[00:31:05] I want you to share it, but what I'm just even feeling energetically, and we've talked about some of this, but when it is an illness like this, sometimes to a healthy person, and you're not old-- you're not 80. You're not 90. You're not 70, 60. For me, the first thing I always hear, or I think of is trauma. That it's not from some physical thing. It's emotional or energetic.

[00:31:27] It's unhealed trauma stored in the body that hasn't been studied enough and isn't mainstream public knowledge that we talk about openly, but it impacts on us. So I'll let you pick up where you want to go because I'm not even speaking clearly because I'm filled with emotion.

[00:31:45] Scott: Sometimes when we don't speak clearly, but from the heart, the most sense of all is being made. I understood everything that you said.

[00:31:58] Kate: Thank you. I'm still working through that, that if I'm not saying the perfect words that have been perfectly written or edited by a professional, that it's not worth saying or people aren't understanding. So it's something I'm working through, and thank you for that. And maybe you're working through that if you're listening.

[00:32:14] And I want you to know that, especially when you're working through some really heavy, important, deep feelings and things in your life, we never need to judge what we're saying or how we're saying it. I think just being in our truth is enough.

[00:32:30] Scott: Yeah. And I just have to respond to that before going on. I stumble and stammer over my words all the time, and a lot of times when I'm speaking publicly or hosting a podcast episode or guesting, I look back and I listen and I say to myself, "Gosh, I mispronounced that word twice before I could get it out of my mouth."

[00:32:52] I began a sentence, and it didn't make sense, so I stopped and started all over again. And look, I was in Toastmasters. I'm still in Toastmasters for many years. You learn to catch these things and to try and perfect the technique of speaking. But you know what? As weird as much as I stammer over words or say the wrong things or sometimes mispronounce, I was talking to a group last night, and I described people that weren't involved in this particular field of study that we were all talking about as commoners.

[00:33:22] And I was like, "Wait a minute. What am I even saying? Why am I using that word." And I had to laugh about it at myself because I was like, "God, that you sound like the worst human being. You sound like someone that needs to be put under a guillotine and executed during the French Revolution.

[00:33:38] There I go. I couldn't even get the word French out right. But people tell me, "Scott, you're charismatic." When I told people that I was going to be giving a TEDx on charisma of all topics, no one was like, "Why you?" And I think that that's because it is going as to what you just said. When we just talk about what's on our mind, what we're feeling, and don't just practice and over rehearse stuff, that real energy comes out, and that's what people connect to.

[00:34:03] And not this announcer voice or all that sort of stuff, which again, has its place. But really feeling, really connecting, really being able to command attention, to me, that's what things like charisma and true presentation in this new era is about. And then I've also got to say, when you talk about dying and living, Kate, I would just love to hear your thoughts on this before I go on with the story.

[00:34:27] I worked in New York City government for decades. I was a practicing attorney. Then I was an executive in a number of different organizations. I worked on a huge number of high-profile projects for some mayors that have very strong reputations. I'll just say that.

[00:34:48] And it is weird. You would see these people, I get to know these people, that were the same when they were 57 and about to retire as they were when they were 23. Then they leave and their career and their arc and who and what they are is the same. And it's nothing. You forget them.

[00:35:11] There's a part of me that's sometimes like, "How can you possibly be exactly the same as you were after 35 years? And what is that saying about what you've made of your life if you haven't lived and died and gone through stuff?" Those people don't inspire me, the people that are exactly the same.

[00:35:32] The people that inspire me are those that grow and change and aren't always as pretty and the way that they were before, but have something really meaningful to say. Do we really want to be like bureaucrats? If you're a bureaucrat listening, I love you nonetheless. But is that what you and I are going to be?

[00:35:52] Kate: What is coming up as you're talking is, when you talk, I believe you. And I think that's another inspiration behind this show, is I see-- and some shows like on the networks, there's things you can and cannot say, as you know, because of sponsors and other government regulations. There's a lot more freedom in the podcast space.

[00:36:12] However, there's so many people who are preaching this and that. I may believe them in terms of, okay, if you eat this, it'll make you healthier. Or if you spend your money this way, yes, your investment will grow. But they speak in a way where despite even speaking in an authoritative way, I'm like, "I don't believe you." Because it seems gimmicky. It seems performative.

[00:36:34] It seems you're doing this whole thing, the movie star or the politician who's able to spit out the most perfect, eloquent soundbite, but then behind the scenes they don't even believe in that. They're just paid off, or that's what they're paid to say or believe.

[00:36:48] So that's an extreme example, but I think there's certain people, even people who have hired me to do TV. They're like, "You know what? You can teach anyone to be an expert. You can't teach personality. You can't teach charisma. You have that sparkle. That's your secret sauce."

[00:37:03] And I think for us, we have that authenticity and vulnerability that sometimes I judge myself for because I'm fumbling over words. I'm emotional. I am all the things they say not to do. But I'm like, "Who's they?" And I don't live by corporate societal standards anyway, where it's a bunch of trained zombies where it's like, if you have an original idea, if you're brilliant, if you contribute, they push you out.

[00:37:29] That's looked at as a bad thing because you can't be controlled or manipulated. So thank you for the believability when you speak. And that, yeah, I feel like a completely different person from where I was a month ago and three months ago. And so that's a good thing. But it's also so uncomfortable.

[00:37:48] There's so many growing pains. There's people that are no longer in my life or that I can relate to. It feels lonely. It feels isolating, but I'd rather have that than the alternative where I'm just dialing it in every day. I'm having these superficial conversations. I don't know who I am. I'm going through the motions to please parents or society or the neighbors next door.

[00:38:15] It feels fraudulent. And I see so many people living their life that way, where on the outside it all appears to be together. And I can speak to this because I've been there. I'm not calling people out as frauds. I felt the same way. But it's like your most fundamental relationship with self, with your partner, with best friends, with your business partner is fraudulent. I mean, come on. You're lying to yourself.

[00:38:36] Scott: You just said something that hit me like a thunderbolt in the heart, Kate, when you said so many of these people working in these environments are living as zombies.

[00:38:46] Think about the word I used to describe how I felt that night that I was cold. That's what it's like to be a zombie. And I think that there is, yeah, a really deep parallel before-- again, this goes as to the importance of having a quality conversation rather than you and I just babbling away emptily about Taylor Swift's latest hit or sports or the climax to House of the Dragon or whatever-- something like that.

[00:39:15] We're talking at a level where, by going into vulnerability, we're able to bring in and think about connections in our lives we might not have otherwise. Being a zombie, I was cold. I was feeling as though I was dead, as though the blood had been dreamed out of me, and that's all I was.

[00:39:34] Why was I able to recognize that was so awful? Kate, it was because I'd known what it was like to be warm blooded. I'd known what it was like to have that inner heat of passion, of love, of feeling, and then to be without temperature. To be without the signifiers of physical existence was so scary that I had to have someone hold my hand.

[00:40:01] But I only knew that because I'd experienced it. Otherwise, if I had been that cold my whole life, I would never have known. And when you use that word, zombie, that's the tragedy. I am guilty of this too. And so many other people, being honest, you can tell sometimes by what they talk about or where their hearts or their minds are. Or just that wistfulness that sometimes they think about when it's too late.

[00:40:27] And you talk about them when they've retired or when it's all over. They've lived their entire lives as that shivering person in the cold, trying to be covered up with whatever. Nothing really covering them up, not having someone to hold their hand. Never known what it was like to live as a real human being that was warm. That's what this change is about to me.

[00:40:51] Kate: Wow. So I'd love for you to continue on from where you were in the hospital. And you're obviously alive and healthy and have made a full recovery. But what do you want everyone listening to know about what continued on from that moment and where you are now?

[00:41:13] Scott: Thank you. So I'll go into the next story, and we can just sort of go as to where that is. I was given test after test after test after test. And nothing ever showed up. It was almost like they would see a shadow of something that might be causing this in my spine. Then they'd do a closeup of it and nothing would be there.

[00:41:36] I did things called gallium scans. I did EKGs. I did multiple MRIs. One MRI, I was in there for an hour and a half and under sedation. I had heart exams. They went through every single aspect of my history. They did COVID, Lyme's disease, every blood test. Nothing, nothing showed up.

[00:41:56] The only thing that showed up was our inflammation markers. And their statement was, "What this does show is that you caught something." We don't know what this pathogen was, but infectious diseases was convinced that it actually was something that I had inhaled or somehow gotten into my system. So they took the lead on this. Eventually, after a while, I was confined to the bed. If I even tried to stand up, the thing would go off.

[00:42:27] I was a fall risk. Going to the bathroom, out of the question. I was in that bed. But eventually, a day came where I thought I might be able to stand. And so I got out of the bed. I walked to the bathroom. My back was at a more or less 90-degree angle to the floor, but I could still walk. If I tried to stand up, what would happen was I would feel searing, electrifying fire-like pain through my entire mid and lower back and my rear end and my pelvis and my thighs, and then just collapse.

[00:43:05] And I know physical therapy came to me and see if there's anything they could do, but they were like, "This issue is pain. Physical therapy isn't going to help at all with this." So I was able to walk, I never forget, just the short distance from the bed to the restroom and then back. And then I tried to go a little bit further, and it was really, really, really, really painful. But I could do it.

[00:43:27] But then the next chapter unfolded, and it was even worse because what happened after a couple of days of that was I developed this new phase where if I turned my neck at all, even slightly, and that includes if I tried to shift in the bed at night or if the doctor said, "Good morning, Scott," and I looked, this entire mid-range of my back on down through my thighs, every nerve would just go on fire. And so I would just start screaming just by the act of turning my neck.

[00:44:02] It was so painful. And so at that point, they threw up their hands and just started giving me nerve dullers. I had a roommate in that hospital room for a while, but he left, and then the next roommate came in. He was an old, old man. I believe he was Hasidic Jewish. I heard him mention in passing that he was from Williamsburg, New York, which for those of you who are not from New York-- you've lived here, Kate, so you know-- that is a neighborhood that's dominated by hipsters and ultra conservative Orthodox Jewish people.

[00:44:35] And this old, old man, I gathered as I listened to the conversation that he was having with the doctor, probably was going to go to hospice next. He looked, when he would get up, as though he was in his 80s and he was ill. And there was a woman in the room next to me who would scream at night.

[00:44:52] The minute the lights went off, she would start saying things. "Nurse, nurse, help me. Can anyone help me?" The nurses would plead with her to just use the nurse call button. But she wouldn't. She would just scream. People on the floor were yelling out to her. Shut the F up.

[00:45:08] And then she would rip off the little thing around her neck that would call the little station by her to start beeping like her heartbeat or her pulse stopped. So the nurses would all come running in. And I heard the nurses saying to her, "You ripped this off on purpose so you could get our attention."

[00:45:27] And she was like, "I'm sorry." So she even knew she was doing it. It was all just this endless attention so people couldn't sleep. It was nightmares. I felt like I was in a Victorian horror novel.

[00:45:40] And why say all that? Is because this old man would have younger men. At the time, I thought that they were his nephews or his sons, but it turns out they probably were just people from his neighborhood.

[00:45:53] And they would surround his bed every night and they would start to sing. And they sang in this low mumbling voice using words that I couldn't understand. I don't even know if they were words. When she would start to scream, they would just sing louder. But they surrounded him and sang every night. And I was in so much pain.

[00:46:15] I was so physically fragile. I was so vulnerable. But somehow that singing, it's like it created an orb, this invisible, delicate, but perfect bubble that went out from his bed. That bubble were their voices and their songs, and it expanded and filled the whole room. And Kate, I knew I wasn't supposed to hear this.

[00:46:43] I'm a gentile. This had to have been some dying prayer or some intensely private sacrament that they were sharing with this man. Why was I able to hear this? What gave me the gift of being able to listen? And weirdly enough, something about this singing, when I heard it, the pain would go away.

[00:47:10] Kate: Ooh.

[00:47:14] Scott: It was as though I was somehow lifted out of my body, even out of my consciousness. I felt peace. I felt love, and that's all. The pain was gone. The fear, the hopelessness, and the despair, they were all gone. Eventually, after a few days, it was time for that man to go on to his journey.

[00:47:39] Now, he could still walk. And as he was leaving, he came to the trash can in the room and he opened it and he put something in. When they were singing, I'd cry, tears of joy and relief. And then I would tell people who were visiting me, my husband or some friends, "This is what happened last night. I don't think I was supposed to hear this."

[00:48:01] But I couldn't help it. I would just start to cry as I talked about it. And I didn't even know why. So he must have heard me. He must have known this was all happening. And I'll never forget this moment, as long as I lived. He turned around and looked at me right in the eye.

[00:48:19] He gave me this smile, and I nodded my head back. And then he went on his way. And I've never seen him again. I never will. I'll never even know his name. But that moment of connection when he looked me in the eye and he gave me that smile, I think he knew the gift that he'd given me. I think that he might have even known that he saved my spirit.

[00:48:52] Kate: Oh. And just acknowledging you and your humanity and your pain.

[00:48:57] Scott: And there's a lot that I could take from that because I've pondered it. And there was one final thing that happened before I left that I'll share if we have time. But I think that that goes as to something that I'd lived so long and never understood, which was silent connection, acknowledgement of a gift.

[00:49:19] Sometimes just looking another human being in the eye and giving them a smile. Sometimes just singing a song and when there's no noise going on in the background, this distracting and making a painful situation even worse, allowing yourself to hear someone singing and singing louder.

[00:49:38] All of these things, I've carried with me, and I've shared this story with others because I think that it speaks on so many levels to so many things that we can take from and appreciate and grab onto when we're suffering. And how even something as simple as singing or being in a room where another person is hearing people singing to you can have such an impact on another human being's life. You don't even need to know them.

[00:50:10] Kate: Feeling seen and witnessed and even understood on some level, even though there was no dialogue--

[00:50:19] Scott: Yes.

[00:50:20] Kate: The silent connection, like you said, and also the power of music and its ability to heal, but really just that human connection of I see you. And when I see you, I bring you into existence. And how that affects our ourselves and our health.

[00:50:37] Scott: Yeah. Our spirit. Eventually, I was well enough thanks to these nerve killers and maybe just the progression of whatever it was that I caught, a virus or bacteria, who knows what it was? My immune system just finally kicking in, I started to be able to walk. I couldn't walk far. It wasn't easy, but I could do it without collapsing into this horrible, neck-turning, dystopian life that I thought that I might be living forever.

[00:51:09] And so it was time for me to go. There was just nothing else that they could do. And since I was 37, I have been diagnosed with type 2 diabetes. Now, I keep that diabetes under control by exercising, by watching my weight, and by eating a keto diet. And over time, my husband, who is a former restaurant owner, has learned to cook that, and he has a next to no carb recipe that he makes for special occasions.

[00:51:40] And he knew that coming home after all this was a special occasion. And so we asked the hospital about when I'd be coming home, and he spent that morning making that carb-free chocolate cheesecake for me.

[00:51:58] Kate: That's so nice saying.

[00:51:59] Scott: Isn't it a beautiful thing? And so he was going to make the cheesecake, leave it to cool, and then come and pick me up. Well, it turns out they were actually ready to release me a little early. So the nurse came in to give me my paperwork, and he sat and went through everything with me, and I started to sign it. And as we were going through all this, down the hallway, we heard all of a sudden this guttural scream. It was a woman.

[00:52:25] And then there was another scream, and another scream. And then we started to see people running in that direction. And at first, they were orderlies and then they were nurses and then they looked like doctors. And then there was a announcement that went over the air. There's a code, whatever, on the fifth floor, whatever floor I was on.

[00:52:44] And so at that point, the nurse dropped everything he was doing with me and ran, and he just followed everyone. And there was a little alarm, and it went on and on and on. You heard this woman screaming, and then she stopped. And then a little while later, I started to see everyone filing past, back to their stations past my door and the nurse came in and sat down.

[00:53:10] And I asked him, "Off the record, what was going on? What happened?" And he said, "Someone unexpectedly lost someone that they loved." And then we just sat, Kate, and again, silently just looked at each other. I don't know what that nurse was feeling inside, but I know that I was overwhelmed by the complexity, richness of life, and its polarity.

[00:53:47] My husband had just made me a cheesecake. This woman would never make that person that she loved cheesecake. I was going to eat that cheesecake that was made just for me with all of my little specifications. And the person she was screaming about would never eat cheesecake again, ever.

[00:54:10] I was about to leave. That person would never leave. My life would continue in whatever way, and my husband's life would continue with me in it. But for that woman and the person that she loved, it was exactly the opposite. And as I left, I couldn't help but yet again ponder the message that was being sent through that complex set of events. A journey ended. A new chapter of another journey began. And the journey chapter that I began would forever be influenced by the end of that chapter.

[00:54:57] All of these things happened, Kate, to someone who had the ability, the age, the life experience to draw meaning from them, to process, to say that there's something underneath the surface that needs to be pulled, that needs to be shared. As well as someone who, not by coincidence, I believe, has the ability and the voice to share, and the connections and the friendships with great podcast and other people like you to pass the message on.

[00:55:41] Kate: What is your biggest message from this experience?

[00:55:47] Scott: Everything has meaning. Everything is an opportunity for insight, everything, anything. Even the fact that we had a talk about the entertainer, Kate, versus the person who's been reacting to this can shift how we view the world and how our voices can in turn go out and shift it for others and change the world because of that.

[00:56:27] Kate: Do you believe that our truth is one of the most powerful gifts that we can share to change the world?

[00:56:35] Scott: In a way, it's the only gift. Our world, Kate, is facing a lot of problems. You don't need me to say it, but I will-- climate change, division, war, tribalism, economic fragmenting, cultural fragmenting, loneliness, isolation, skyrocketing mental health problems and suicide rates. And what's the common thread all of these things have? I was having another conversation today with someone else about what that common thread is. Lies.

[00:57:18] Kate: Ooh.

[00:57:19] Scott: Lies. Lies about the true state of the earth. Lies about who and what human beings are. Lies about what we need. Lies about what matters. Truth is the only thing that we have.

[00:57:37] Kate: And people are lying to themselves every day about who they are, who they care about, or don't care about, what they love or don't love.

[00:57:47] Scott: Yes.

[00:57:47] Kate: Lying to themselves, that they're happy when they're not. Lying to themselves that this is what they want when it's not. Lying to themselves that they don't have any choice in the matter. Nobody cares. It's not safe to speak the truth. It's not safe to be who they are.

[00:58:06] Scott: And again, I will speak for myself, it can feel easy and safe to go into entertainer mode, especially for those of us that have it. Sometimes that's our truth in the moment. But thinking about the top of the conversation, how many times have I lived it out as a lie?

[00:58:30] Kate: I think sometimes the things that we do that impress people the most feel like a lie, whether it's married with children. For me, working as a model or TV presenter, anything on camera, that seemed to impress a lot of people. But if I'm honest, it felt like a very hollow existence. Even I struggled last night alone with thoughts of even this podcast. Why bother?

[00:58:58] I've seen some other people become very, very successful being so crass and acting in such a deplorable way, in my opinion. Anyway, everyone's on their own journey, so I don't want to be a hater here about how some people choose to conduct their lives, but using the word hate, doing things in a hateful way, saying things just for the sake of being controversial and divisive and mean-spirited to get the ratings and have the click bait.

[00:59:29] And me thinking that's not at all what I'm doing here or want to do. And it's like, is someone going to watch a show about truth and rawness and trying to change the world through truth telling and storytelling? And the answer is yes, but when you do something that goes against the grain, even a lot of personal choices I've made up to this point, like not getting married and having children, for certain reasons at least yet, how lonely that can feel.

[00:59:57] It feels lonely to live our truth in a world where a lot of people aren't comfortable doing that or may not understand your decisions because it isn't the norm. But I think doing it anyway because I think there's at least one person listening and watching who has a big dream or a big truth that goes against society or what most people are doing, and they're scared.

[01:00:20] And you have to do it. For me, it's just like, I hear the call, and I get the message. I'm like, "Okay, send me the people to support me. Make it fun. Make it flow." And to your point, tomorrow is not promised or guaranteed. And what are we waiting for?

[01:00:39] Scott: You're right. What are we waiting for? Do you want to be like that sad bureaucrat who resists change, who may be living a lie then it's too late? A friend of mine who worked in-- and I'm not picking on government service in particular because this could be in any sort of large organization, but he had high level in-house counsel positions, and he even was a judge at one point of a certain sort.

[01:01:15] And he told me after he retired, nothing I did mattered. Every last thing that I ever did in my career, someone else could have done just as well, if not better. There was no need for it to be me. And so really what I did didn't matter. Now what the rest of my life is going to be is just, I don't know, traveling and having fun, which is totally cool. I would never want to deprive anyone of that. But was that living his truth? This man is brilliant, had so much to offer.

[01:01:51] Kate: Why do you think so many people are scared to live their truth?

[01:01:57] Scott: Like you said, it hurts. It's hard. Social rejection and loneliness is painful.

[01:02:07] Kate: It's also taking a risk.

[01:02:09] Scott: It is.

[01:02:13] Kate: Did you have any fear after this experience that you were going to be in bed one night and the zombie feeling would come back, or unresolved trauma might affect your physical health or wellbeing? Because I know you had a difficult childhood that you can speak or not speak about. But do you ever worry that something like this is going to happen again? Or you think, you know what? I conquered this. Nothing's going to stop me. I've got this.

[01:02:45] Scott: No one will ever know what this was that I got. No one will ever know why I got better. I will never know whether it will return. I do not consciously live in fear of it, but now, over the past week or so, I've been thinking a lot about it. Will it come back one day? The anniversary triggers it. Someone saw me last Friday and they said, "You seem a little bit down."

[01:03:21] A couple of people said that, and it was because I was thinking about this. I was remembering coming down sick and thinking, will this come back again? So far it hasn't. I have no reason to believe that it will. But I will also share a deep insight that the "diagnosis" gave me, the mystery of it. The last thing the doctor said to me before I left, after she said, "If you weren't in such good shape, you probably wouldn't have made it out of here," was-- I was like, "It really bothers me not knowing what this is."

[01:04:05] And she said, "Scott, sometimes there just aren't answers." Kate, I've come to understand that that also was a precious gift. Because answers define. Answers limit.

[01:04:23] And so not knowing what this was, why I got it, why I got better, well, that gives me the chance to explore. In fact, it almost demands that I explore everything. It allows me to be creative in my life. How am I going to change it? Well, I don't know what caused this, so let me look at everything and think about how do we shuffle and do things all over differently because anything could have caused this.

[01:04:52] And you know what? Even if none of those things that I change relate to the cause or do anything at all, so what? I've moved my life in a creative way. And if there's anything that I've committed to since this, if there's anything I've leaned into, that is the part of myself that is creative, and if there's anything that I'm glad did die and remains in that hospital bed is the person who couldn't or wouldn't see that capacity within himself. Creativity is one of the most strong powers that someone can have. And this forced me to lean into that.

[01:05:40] Kate: That is so beautiful. As you're talking, something came up that I'd love to share because our bodies are so wise. And there's that beautiful book, The Body Keeps the Score. And I've learned too, doctors are very important. I love my brother. He's a doctor. I respect them, and they are very important. And there's some things that happen, your situation-- I've had a situation where doctors can't explain it. It makes no sense.

[01:06:06] They don't know how you got it, why you're so sick, and why you ultimately recovered and you're out of there. We can call it miracles, all the things. But there was moments of no conclusion here. I had a similar something when I was a TV news anchor and reporter where I became incapacitated with my brain.

[01:06:25] Same thing. Couldn't move, throwing up, couldn't get out of bed, had to be rushed to the hospital, and did all the MRIs, all the things. I was so healthy. I'm in my 20s. No conclusion. Went to those brain specialists. No conclusion. And I definitely have done a lot of work since then, but even then, I knew to tune into my body. And I asked. Because our body knows, and our body will tell you.

[01:06:50] Your higher self will tell you if you ask and you practice at listening. And my body said to me, "You got to get out of here. It's this environment. It's this toxic person that you're choosing to date. It's this toxic newsroom and career that you're choosing to work in. I heard that, but then I thought, I could end the thing with the guy, be painful, but I'm like, "This is my career. This was always my dream. I'm with NBC. I'm doing this, money, blah, blah, blah."

[01:07:21] And my body told me again. And so I did. I ended up ultimately making changes. But even now I have this psoriasis or eczema outbreak. And you can say it's like, oh, it's this, or it's that, bacteria this, all the causes that you can read on google.com. But when I tune in, and Louise Hay wrote a book about it too, where you can tune into the energetic or metaphysical reason for your illness.

[01:07:48] And when I tune in and I look at it on my body and I'm like, "What's going on here?" My body's like, "We're regenerating. This is a massive detoxification. You are changing old patterns. You are releasing karmic patterns." And all these things that some people listening right now might not understand.

[01:08:07] But it is very deep, and you don't have to believe in it. I think these are things are true whether we choose to believe in it or not. I choose to believe because I want to help my body, and I'm like, "What are you doing?" My body is literally purging. People are being purged from my life.

[01:08:19] Again, it's grief. It's pain. And I think when we can accept that and listen to our body, then things can clear up. And sometimes it is trauma that you start doing work, it starts to come out of the body. And in certain ways, even as we're talking, I feel like my head is starting to hurt a little bit.

[01:08:34] I'm starting to feel physical ailments because my body is feeling what we're talking about. So it is good to talk about these things because stuff that's stored, trauma and pain and unrepressed or repressed feelings or emotions, they get stored and locked in the body, and you have physical pain. So it's another good reason to do truth and storytelling to release all this from the body.

[01:09:03] Scott: If we are not looking at the deeper meanings behind these things that happened to us, we are losing opportunity. I could have easily just also examined the physical symptoms of this and gone on and be like, "Okay, it's over. And if it comes back again, I'll deal with it. That's what medicine is for." And hey, I did go to the hospital.

[01:09:29] I didn't try and stick this out at home. When they gave me nerve dullers, I took them when they had me go through all these tests. Hell yeah, I was going to go through them. And although I didn't get, I wanted a physical explanation or a medical explanation. But I do think that you're right.

[01:09:46] A lot of times looking only at the physical-- as an aside, and this is getting a little bit deep, but I think it's worth just touching on, as you know, I coach people using Greek myths as a transformational lens. And there is a great book that has heavily influenced my thinking. It's called Greek Mythology and Philosophy. It posits that the world of myth, and I believe this, and it might have framed it differently, is a world in which meaning is extracted from the unexplainable.

[01:10:28] It was rejected historically by some of the early Greek philosophers who wanted a more materialist, more empirical approach and ultimately led to some good things which have come by adopting that approach. Medicine was the early example of that, as well as logic-based and science-based thinking, which have led us to a certain amount of progress. But it swung so hard in that direction.

[01:10:55] Those things draw meaning and understanding from things that are repeatable as opposed to the things that are unexplainable or that happen once and then you have to look beneath the surface. I really believe, and this author posited this, that space needs to be brought to, in which the mythical mindset, the acceptance of the belief in or the willing to explore the unexplained or the non-empirical, combined with or living hand in hand with the empirical to develop maximal understanding. Otherwise, what we are experiencing has nothing beyond the tactile explanation. And then why are we even here?

[01:11:39] Kate: How did you even get so passionate about Greek mythology and go on to give not one, but two TEDx talks about it. And TEDx talks are hard to book. And these ideas are a bit outside the box, but again, they're ideas worth sharing. But that you just owned it, and again, didn't care what other people think. You're doing a show about it, and you just own this Greek mythology space that nobody's doing. How did this come about?

[01:12:09] Scott: First of all, before I say anything further, you are going to be a guest on that show. I cannot wait for us--

[01:12:15] Kate: I'm so excited.

[01:12:16] Scott: It's going to be the most fun ever. And again, some of that is accepting your truth, as weird as it might be. Kate, when I was a little boy, I saw a book on Greek myths, a children's book with Helios, the God of the sun on the cover. And I was immediately affected by that. I spent all of my allowance money on it. I still have that book to this day.

[01:12:36] And that God, Helios, spoke to me. I read it over and over. I've been obsessed with these things my whole life. Helios in particular, every time I've painted or drawn or something, he comes out over and over. These stories are the lens through which I have been able to understand and frame my own life experiences. And it is out of the box. I would even own. It's weird, but it is my truth.

[01:13:06] Kate: Why do we shame weird though? Why is normal normalized? It's so boring and it's done. You can see billions of examples of it, but then it's like, oh, Greek mythology. Weird. Oh, you're this age and single weird. Oh, you aren't going to talk about snarky, obnoxious talk. Talk about how much J-Lo sucks on your podcast. Weird. I don't know why I got a weird voice for that.

[01:13:32] Scott: I love that weird voice. We all know that person who says it.

[01:13:38] Kate: It's just like, enough with the shit. It's just like, you know what? Why aren't you doing pod-- you know what? There's a billion people talking about that shit. Let's talk about some real stuff. Let's talk about some raw stuff. This conversation that we've had, I've never heard anywhere publicly or privately, ever. So if people like it, great. If they don't, great. I don't care because no one's doing this.

[01:14:04] Or they're doing it with an agenda. Listen, I'm an author. You got to sell books. It's the business. But it's just-- right? Or it's like when I do hear stories, it's an agenda to sell the thing, which again, is fine. I'm not knocking. We all need to pay bills and make money. And you want to make an impact. I get it. I'll just stop.

[01:14:29] Scott: Yeah.

[01:14:30] Kate: I guess my truth is that I'm frustrated and I'm working through it. I'm frustrated. Not so much after talking to you. I feel very hopeful and very alive and very inspired, but I'm also frustrated because there's still this consumeristic game that we all have to play to a degree.

[01:14:52] Scott: Yeah. And it's tough because that almost never aligns with our truth. Like you said, the consumeristic approach is how we can get our message out there. It's how we can pay the bills. And yeah, I'm not prospecting to live in a homeless shelter. Those whose journey takes them there, I empathize with. And hey, I worked in the homeless services space for a couple of jobs, so it's not like I'm down downing on anyone, but that's not my personal goal in life.

[01:15:22] And so, yeah, I've got to sell things in order to make a living, and all of us want to do that. And we want to do that in a way that helps support our truth. What you're talking about also points us to the limits. There are limits to everything. You may feel as though living your truth means being able to utilize that incredible voice and presence that you, Kate Eckman, as a speaker and presenter have.

[01:15:46] But that doesn't mean at the same time that that's boundless or that we want to intentionally have it collide with or crush other people's truth. We both know, for instance, if we're booked to go and speak on a stage somewhere, we can't be going up there in nothing but a pair of diapers.

[01:16:05] Kate: Right.

[01:16:05] Scott: And some hiking boots. We've got to present within the boundaries within the framework that people can take and we can hear. And so perhaps sometimes, as important as even the message itself can be, this idea of pushing the boundaries of what is the truth that people can hear, there's real power in that. So we sacrificed-- I wanted to wear diapers on that stage yesterday, doc on it.

[01:16:34] I can't, and I had to go to the bathroom beforehand. I couldn't just pee pee on the stage if I wanted to. That's not fair. But thinking, I can push boundaries in a way that is more efficacious, to use a lawyerly word, by maybe withholding on my desire to have that particular truth lived.

[01:16:57] Kate: So in life we become sometimes reluctant spokespeople, for instance. Or we get these life assignments that we think, why did I get this life assignment? For instance, I got the suicide prevention awareness life assignment that I am honored to do that work after losing two loved ones to suicide and sharing that story and the impact it had on me and the own dark thoughts that it brought up in me.

[01:17:23] And if I'm having dark thoughts, it means a lot of people are having dark thoughts and not talking about them or acknowledging them and don't have the tools and resources and outlets to deal with those dark thoughts. So let me talk about it so that we can open up the conversation. You have become the reluctant or maybe honored to be the spokesperson for a near-death experience. Who wants that?

[01:17:46] But there's also beauty and magic in that and the inner growth that it requires of us. I think when you go through something traumatic, you can use it as a catalyst for great transformation, or you can use it as an excuse to take a path of debauchery and go a different direction. You have chosen to really learn from it and grow from it and now be a source of hope and inspiration and be that much better of a partner and coach and friend.

[01:18:11] And maybe that also meant part of that death-rebirth cycle, that a lot of people do fall out of our lives. It can be very disruptive and make us feel grief stricken at times. And it can have us questioning, did I do something or what's wrong with me? But I think trusting in the universe that certain relationships need to come to an end because this new version of you can't tolerate the same old version of them. And you really have to have people who see you for where you are now and help take you higher.

[01:18:40] So all of that to say, what do you feel that you're now an expert in to share with people who are going through this, will go through it, or maybe are going through it and don't really realize what it is and are just cursing life in the world right now because they're so uncomfortable?

[01:19:00] Scott: I am going to tell a Greek myth. In a way, what I just told you when I talked about this journey I had through the illness, it was a Greek myth. Hercules was the son of the God Zeus, an immortal. And he was blessed or cursed with abnormal strength and a very poor temper. And so he basically, in a moment of temper tantrumness, was frustrated at his music teacher because the music teacher scolded him for being such a poor student.

[01:19:47] And he took the lyre, this harp-like instrument that he was learning, and he bashed it over his music teacher's head and killed the music teacher on the spot. Hercules was then vanished to the wilderness. And one day he was walking down a road and there was a fork.

[01:20:05] And two mysterious women approached him in this fork and one said to him, "If you go down this fork where I stand, you can live a life of comfort. You'll live a life of wealth, and you'll live a long time. You're the son of a God, and you should have been a king. I'll make sure that you live like that."

[01:20:25] And the other woman said, "This other road will hard, and it will be painful and it will be dark. And Hercules, you will suffer. What do you choose? Which fork do you walk down?" Hercules chose to walk down the hard one. The women were virtue and vice. Vice was the easy road. Virtue was a great one.

[01:20:53] Hercules is known because he had 12 laborers. That's how he became the hero. He, along the way, came to understand that the laborers weren't just about conquering monsters, but they were about helping people, about making people feel safe from things that had terrorized them later.

[01:21:13] They even represented overcoming things like the fear of death if looked at symbolically. Yet, even with his labors in Hercules' last moment, he was given a cloak that he put over his skin and the cloak burned the flesh and the skin right off of his bones. And even as he lived and was building his own funeral pyre, chunks of his arms and his legs were literally burning off of his body until finally he jumped on top of the pyre and let himself burn alive and have it all end.

[01:21:47] But then, Kate, the thunder clapped, and the heavens rolled back, and there was Mount Olympus. And Hercules ascended. What are we choosing? What are we going through? What road do we walk? And as bad as whatever suffering might be, what are we seeking at the very, very end?

[01:22:12] Kate: What are we seeking at the very, very end? So that's the question. We've posed many questions in this really beautiful, transformative conversation. Thank you so much for your authenticity, vulnerability, willingness to share one of the most deeply personal things that anyone can ever go through. I honor your courage and commitment to-- getting choked up talking about it-- share your truth in the hopes of inspiring others.

[01:22:41] Suddenly something in my throat-- that's interesting. I was just reading about this. It means you really have a truth to express that's been repressed. Interesting. See, you can't make stuff up. Again, the body is always communicating with us. So that reminder to really listen to it and to become friends with it and to start noticing and self-examining and get really comfortable with that relationship with our body.

[01:23:09] I just appreciate you so much, and you've offered us so much wisdom and so many questions to ponder and consider in the hopes and attempts and commitment to lead a deeper, more meaningful life. So thank you so much to Scott Mason. Everyone's going to want to check him out, so we're going to put all of that where you can find him and work with him and watch him and certainly look at his TED Talks because they're fascinating, and you will never see anything like it.

[01:23:36] Because there's no one like Scott Mason. So thank you so much for being here. Do you have any final last word that you would like to share? I'll give you the last word before we head on out today.

[01:23:45] Scott: Your TEDx talk itself is pretty doggone special. It has been a privilege being on this show, and there's nothing more heroic or epic than having a conversation that's rich, deep, and above all else real. Thank you for creating that ship and allowing us to sail on it together.

[01:24:10] Kate: Thank you so much. Have a beautiful day, everybody. We'll see you next time.